Discussion:
Pre-natal Epoch / Syzygy Ante Navitatem
(too old to reply)
kjelleman
2005-02-04 08:58:53 UTC
Permalink
Does anyone know how the pre-natal epoch (SAN; syzygy ante navitatem)
was employed? I have searched the archives of the group, and the web
too, but all that I see is that it is "a sensitive point" etc, but
nothing specific.

/Kjell
Ray Murphy
2005-02-04 13:45:00 UTC
Permalink
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Post by kjelleman
Does anyone know how the pre-natal epoch (SAN; syzygy ante navitatem)
was employed? I have searched the archives of the group, and the web
too, but all that I see is that it is "a sensitive point" etc, but
nothing specific.
/Kjell
RM: The pre-natal epoch is said to be a period of time somewhere near
conception.
It has been used as an aid for the rectification of natal charts, and
also for something akin to conception charts.
Many technically inclined astrologers have looked at the pre-natal
epoch system, presumably because of it's apparent mechanical nature,
whereby the Moon of that epoch becomes the Asc or Desc of the person's
real chart.

It's true that the pre-natal epoch can occasionally appear to confirm
birth times, but that is probably only 'chance' at work.
I'd suggest that if anyone wants to look at the pre-natal epoch, that
they really get stuck into it and get some solid answers and then
leave it alone and go and do something useful in astrology.

Ray
kjelleman
2005-02-05 19:17:34 UTC
Permalink
Oh, I thought the pre-natal epoch was the lunation closest to birth.
Good thing I asked!

And, yes, I understand that there may be some unnecessary baggage in
astrology. But, after all, I am still in my learning stage, trying to
get a hang of unfamiliar terms when I encounter them -- and curiosity
wont kill THIS cat! :-)

Thanks for your answer,

/Kjell
Ray Murphy
2005-02-07 06:26:24 UTC
Permalink
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Post by kjelleman
Oh, I thought the pre-natal epoch was the lunation closest to birth.
Good thing I asked!
RM: That was only one opinion of course.
The pre-natal lunar eclipse is worth watching as a sensitive point,
although I've got no idea what it could mean after 20 years of seeing
transits to it. Same with the pre-natal solar eclipse. The only
possibility I can think of is that they might be some sort of magnet
for people.
Post by kjelleman
And, yes, I understand that there may be some unnecessary baggage in
astrology. But, after all, I am still in my learning stage, trying to
get a hang of unfamiliar terms when I encounter them -- and curiosity
wont kill THIS cat! :-)
RM: A lot of rubbish seems to have been attached to astrology over the
centuries, but we shouldn't overlook the way it has been structured--
where some factors are merely props which somehow help us to focus and
get the right answers.
Modern astrologers don't have the time or the inclination to learn a
lot of that old stuff, but besides that we now have a continuous
stream of 20th century add-ons to deal with.

[...]
Post by kjelleman
/Kjell
Ray
Chris Mitchell
2005-02-07 19:05:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by kjelleman
Does anyone know how the pre-natal epoch (SAN; syzygy ante navitatem)
was employed? I have searched the archives of the group, and the web
too, but all that I see is that it is "a sensitive point" etc, but
nothing specific.
/Kjell
It was used to determine the "hyleg", the planet responsible for
"giving life and vitality" to a chart. Ideally, this should be the Sun
or Moon, but if these don't suffice then Ptolemy and Bonatti use the
ruler of the syzygy Sun to be the hyleg.
Jyeshta
2005-02-08 17:02:34 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:05:29 CST, Chris Mitchell
Post by Chris Mitchell
Post by kjelleman
Does anyone know how the pre-natal epoch (SAN; syzygy ante navitatem)
was employed? I have searched the archives of the group, and the web
too, but all that I see is that it is "a sensitive point" etc, but
nothing specific.
/Kjell
It was used to determine the "hyleg", the planet responsible for
"giving life and vitality" to a chart. Ideally, this should be the Sun
or Moon, but if these don't suffice then Ptolemy and Bonatti use the
ruler of the syzygy Sun to be the hyleg.
Could you please refresh my memory and tell me what the pre-natal
epoch is? Thanks.
Chris Mitchell
2005-02-08 20:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jyeshta
Could you please refresh my memory and tell me what the pre-natal
epoch is? Thanks.
It's simply the last Full Moon or New Moon before your date of birth.

Chris.
Chris Mitchell
2005-02-09 02:01:12 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:52:49 CST, Chris Mitchell
Post by Chris Mitchell
Post by Jyeshta
Could you please refresh my memory and tell me what the pre-natal
epoch is? Thanks.
It's simply the last Full Moon or New Moon before your date of birth.
Chris.
CORRECTION:

That will teach me for not reading the entire thread!

Ray's just pointed out to me that pre-natal epoch is something very
different indeed, as he said in an earlier post! Syzygy Ante Navitatem
is the Full Moon or New Moon before your date of birth; but the
pre-natal epoch is the conception chart (or period of time near it),
as Ray said.

Sorry about the confusion!
Jyeshta
2005-02-09 16:38:53 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 20:01:12 CST, Chris Mitchell
Post by Chris Mitchell
On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:52:49 CST, Chris Mitchell
Post by Chris Mitchell
Post by Jyeshta
Could you please refresh my memory and tell me what the pre-natal
epoch is? Thanks.
It's simply the last Full Moon or New Moon before your date of birth.
Chris.
That will teach me for not reading the entire thread!
Ray's just pointed out to me that pre-natal epoch is something very
different indeed, as he said in an earlier post! Syzygy Ante Navitatem
is the Full Moon or New Moon before your date of birth; but the
pre-natal epoch is the conception chart (or period of time near it),
as Ray said.
Sorry about the confusion!
Thank you again, Chris.
Ray Murphy
2005-02-09 23:31:02 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Chris Mitchell
On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:52:49 CST, Chris Mitchell
Post by Chris Mitchell
Post by Jyeshta
Could you please refresh my memory and tell me what the pre-natal
epoch is? Thanks.
It's simply the last Full Moon or New Moon before your date of birth.
Chris.
That will teach me for not reading the entire thread!
Ray's just pointed out to me that pre-natal epoch is something very
different indeed, as he said in an earlier post! Syzygy Ante Navitatem
is the Full Moon or New Moon before your date of birth; but the
pre-natal epoch is the conception chart (or period of time near it),
as Ray said.
RM: I don't think I've ever heard about the Full or New Moon before
birth as having significance in astrology, although it does sound
vaguely familiar.

So what have we got:
* Prenatal Lunar Eclipse
* Prenatal Solar Eclipse
* Prenatal Full Moon (S.A.N)
* Prenatal New Moon (S.A.N)
* Prenatal Epoch
Post by Chris Mitchell
Sorry about the confusion!
RM: I'm not. It just helps to even the score up a bit:
Confusing posts:
Ray -- 146
Chris -- 001


Ray
Chris Mitchell
2005-02-10 02:25:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Murphy
RM: I don't think I've ever heard about the Full or New Moon before
birth as having significance in astrology, although it does sound
vaguely familiar.
It was used a lot in medieval astrology - Ptolemy and Bonatti both
used it as a potential for discovering the "Hyleg", the part of the
chart that was said to give a chart vitality, and used to calculate
the length of the native's life.
Post by Ray Murphy
Post by Chris Mitchell
Sorry about the confusion!
Ray -- 146
Chris -- 001
LOL! That's very kind of you to say so, Ray, though I must say your
posts are pretty lucid - and given the subject matter of some of them
(research methodology in particular), that's no mean feat!

Ray Murphy
2005-02-09 04:58:25 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Chris Mitchell
Post by Jyeshta
Could you please refresh my memory and tell me what the pre-natal
epoch is? Thanks.
It's simply the last Full Moon or New Moon before your date of birth.
Chris.
RM: Gotcha!

In Geoffrey Dean and Arthur Mather's famous book "Recent Advances in
Natal Astrology" the Pre-natal epoch is described like this in the
first three paragraphs on page 473.

THE PRENATAL EPOCH
"According to Bailey [4] and Sepharial [68] there is an exact
interchange between the Moon's position at epoch and the ascendant or
Descendant at birth, and vice versa. This is also known as the Trutine
of Hermes."

"The word 'epoch' means either a moment or a period marking new
developments;here only the first is relevant. There is no agreement on
what the epoch is but it is usually taken to be the moment of
conception".

Hall [30] comments - "Exponents of the prenatal epoch believe that a
chart erected for the time of conception will give a more definite
figure of the innate qualities... than that erected for the time of
physical birth .. (it) reveals .. those qualities brought forward from
past lives".
--------

RM: Further comments by Darling, Davison, Ponde, Clark, Harvey,
Schwickert, Tucker, Church of Light, Dobyns, Kemp, Hone, and Blundson
are omitted from my quote above but they are all discussing the same
thing.

Ray
Jyeshta
2005-02-09 16:39:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Murphy
----------
Post by Chris Mitchell
Post by Jyeshta
Could you please refresh my memory and tell me what the pre-natal
epoch is? Thanks.
It's simply the last Full Moon or New Moon before your date of birth.
Chris.
RM: Gotcha!
In Geoffrey Dean and Arthur Mather's famous book "Recent Advances in
Natal Astrology" the Pre-natal epoch is described like this in the
first three paragraphs on page 473.
THE PRENATAL EPOCH
"According to Bailey [4] and Sepharial [68] there is an exact
interchange between the Moon's position at epoch and the ascendant or
Descendant at birth, and vice versa. This is also known as the Trutine
of Hermes."
"The word 'epoch' means either a moment or a period marking new
developments;here only the first is relevant. There is no agreement on
what the epoch is but it is usually taken to be the moment of
conception".
Hall [30] comments - "Exponents of the prenatal epoch believe that a
chart erected for the time of conception will give a more definite
figure of the innate qualities... than that erected for the time of
physical birth .. (it) reveals .. those qualities brought forward from
past lives".
--------
RM: Further comments by Darling, Davison, Ponde, Clark, Harvey,
Schwickert, Tucker, Church of Light, Dobyns, Kemp, Hone, and Blundson
are omitted from my quote above but they are all discussing the same
thing.
Ray
Thank you, Ray.
Jyeshta
2005-02-09 16:36:29 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:52:49 CST, Chris Mitchell
Post by Chris Mitchell
Post by Jyeshta
Could you please refresh my memory and tell me what the pre-natal
epoch is? Thanks.
It's simply the last Full Moon or New Moon before your date of birth.
Chris.
Thank you, Chris!
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