The Mean Black Moon Lilith and its symbolism

[Hermes]

Christine wrote:
: Hi Hermes,
: I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make by Lilith and
: Chiron-NN, which do not aspect each other.
: Their Moons are also in different signs.
: But, at 1a.m, it could be my mind is a bit slow :-)

I only have a partial argument for the moment.

Like you, I see no connection between Lilith and Cheiron-NN in
the mentioned charts of Robert Hand and Alice Schwarzer.

However, in my experience, whenever I look at Lilith, Sagittarius
or Cheiron is often also prominently there. (In mythology, the
constellation of Sagittarius is Cheiron (or at least one of the
centaurs) that was put into the sky - so that Sagittarius and
Cheiron often appear together is no surprise, but provides no
direct link to Lilith).

Let me try to look a bit deeper, let me try to look back to the
time that the Black Moon Lilith was "invented".

In February 1930, a new planet, later called Pluto, was spotted
in the USA. Since Pluto is the god of the underworld, it was not
very far fetched to make him the ruler of Scorpio. However, it also
appears to me that Pluto does not capture all the elements of the
darker, female side of Mars. Pluto does go deep, but is he much
aggressive, compulsive ? Wars are not only won by the male, bright
side of Mars, with honor and high aspiration. Treason and going
lower than the enemy can also win a war ("female mud wrestling").
In the Middle Ages, Mars was feared along with Saturn as one of
the bringers of evil, death and destruction.

So, what I am saying is that taking away rulership of Scorpio from
Mars is something that must have created huge tensions in people,
more precisely collectively and largely unconsciously.

Black Moon Lilith was invented/named sometime in the early 1930's,
i.e. shortly after the discovery of Pluto. Thus Lilith and Pluto
are connected. And, since the discovery of Pluto had a grave impact
on the symbolism of Mars, there is naturally a also a connection
between Mars and Lilith.

It comes as no surprise to me that Lilith was invented in France,
since France is sort of the twin brother of the USA, seen from the
USA often as the evil twin ("Liberty Fries"). What made these two
essentially brothers were the modern revolutions of 1776 and 1789,
both with the sun in Cancer.

The guy who invented Black Moon Lilith was Pierre Rougie. "Rouge"
is French for "red", i.e. a reference to Mars (while "Pierre" means
rock, a reference to Saturn). He used the pseudonym Dom Neroman.
"Nero" is Italian/Latin for "black", i.e. a reference to Lilith
(while "Dom" reminds of "Domus", i.e. house).

That suggests quite strongly that Lilith is a creation of Mars,
his way of taking revenge for the loss of rulership over Scorpio
to Pluto: A guy with "red" in his real name, i.e. really Mars,
is using a pseudonym that contains "black", i.e. Lilith. As the
above suggests, he was maybe helped by Saturn ("Pierre"/"rock")
who himself had lost rulership over Aquarius in 1781. (And there
seems again to be a connection to astrological houses, but this
is rather a sidetrack from the main argument, and not something
that I understand much at the moment).

There are variants of the myth of Adam and Lilith in which they
were Siamese Wwins, grown together back to back. (That reminds a
bit of Janus, the roman god of January, thus related to Saturn).
Jewish religion is strongly linked to the Age of Aries, since it
emerged roughly around the beginning of it, according to legend
when Abraham, father of all Jews, left the city of Ur.

So, the myth of Adam and Lilith is clearly related to the Age of
Aries, in which one would expect people to focus mainly on the
male aspects of Mars, i.e. rather on Adam than on Eve. It is thus
not astonishing that Eve was banned in that myth and replaced by
a more docile, domesticated wife (again a hint at the houses).

Another reaction to the discovery of Pluto was the subsequent
rise of Fascism, World War II and also the Shoa/Holocaust.

Fascism had a mythology called "Blut und Boden", "Blood and Soil".
That is again related to Mars (blood is red, related to War and
also to menstruation) and to Earth (soil; again also related to
Saturn and I think also to houses, since they are probably more
often called "Felder", "fields" in German).

And, of course, the Holocaust consisted of a systematic destruction
(although fortunately an incomplete one) of Jews, i.e. of the male
side of Mars. So, Pluto, Mars, Lilith and also Saturn and Houses
are related to the Holocaust, World War II and Fascism.

Both Robert Hand and Alice Schwarzer have Jewish origins and they
were born during World War II. That relates them strong to these
issues, as well as many other prominent astrologers, like also Liz
Greene (born in New Jersey, like Robert Hand, just after the war).

In my orginal discoveries document,

http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf

I write the following about Cheiron (section 3.14):

: Psychologically, Chiron is intended to provide a balance to Pluto,
: to heal rather than to penetrate boundaries and to head the wounds
: of the holocaust.

Summing things up, I am tempted to give the following definition
of the meaning of Lilith:

Lilith := Mars - male Mars - Pluto + elements of male Saturn*
(+ a relation to houses ?)

* i.e. some of those elements that had been removed from Saturn when
he lost his rulership over Aquarius to Uranus.

Of course, the above definition, since it is rather abstract and
mathematical and formulated in words, is male (element Air), i.e.
it cannot fully describe something that is largely female.


: > I have just posted two articles to alt.astrology.tropical. One
: > of them is about houses, in reply to Larry Swain's three part
: > post there. Part of the ideas that I present there originated
: > from things that I heard here in this thread, including Juan's
: > emphasis on the higher aspects of Lilith, which fits well with
: > the Earth/Air signature of houses (see post there when it will
: > appear, probably within the next 24 hours).
:
: > The second post is more personal, but also clearly related to
: > Lilith.
:
: I read Larry's post....twice... a while back. I felt he side-tracked from a
: point he was attempting to make, but that I never fully understood. Once
: again, it might just be my level of level of comprehension that failed.
:
: I'll hope to catch up on your posts soon. Are comments welcome?

Sure.

I certainly read and consider all replies. A lack of reply from my
side will thus practically never imply a lack of appreciation.

[Ray Murphy]

----------

Post by Hermes
: Hi Hermes,
: I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make by Lilith and
: Chiron-NN, which do not aspect each other.
: Their Moons are also in different signs.
: But, at 1a.m, it could be my mind is a bit slow :-)
I only have a partial argument for the moment.
Like you, I see no connection between Lilith and Cheiron-NN in
the mentioned charts of Robert Hand and Alice Schwarzer.
However, in my experience, whenever I look at Lilith, Sagittarius
or Cheiron is often also prominently there. (In mythology, the
constellation of Sagittarius is Cheiron (or at least one of the
centaurs) that was put into the sky - so that Sagittarius and
Cheiron often appear together is no surprise, but provides no
direct link to Lilith).
Let me try to look a bit deeper, let me try to look back to the
time that the Black Moon Lilith was "invented".
In February 1930, a new planet, later called Pluto, was spotted
in the USA. Since Pluto is the god of the underworld, it was not
very far fetched to make him the ruler of Scorpio. However, it also
appears to me that Pluto does not capture all the elements of the
darker, female side of Mars. Pluto does go deep, but is he much
aggressive, compulsive ? Wars are not only won by the male, bright
side of Mars, with honor and high aspiration. Treason and going
lower than the enemy can also win a war ("female mud wrestling").
In the Middle Ages, Mars was feared along with Saturn as one of
the bringers of evil, death and destruction.
So, what I am saying is that taking away rulership of Scorpio from
Mars is something that must have created huge tensions in people,
more precisely collectively and largely unconsciously.
Black Moon Lilith was invented/named sometime in the early 1930's,
i.e. shortly after the discovery of Pluto.

RM: It's sad that after years of discussing Lilith and Black Moon and
Dark Moon, most astrologers still haven't got a clue what the history
is. You might be right; perhaps Black Moon Lilith was invented or
named in 1930, but you'd think with all the academics running around
in astrology-world, someone would have compliled something definitive
about the connections between:
(1) The old 19th century invisible satellite and it's Lilith
connections.
(2) The mean lunar apogee and it's earliest association with "Dark
Moon" (in French).
(3) The leap from "Dark Moon" to "Dark Moon-Lilith" in France
(4) The leap from Dark Moon to Black Moon
(5) The abolition of the FML (Fake Moon Lilith) satellite - called
Dark Moon.
(6) The declaration and transferance of all FML attributes to BML
(7) Whether the Mean Lunar apogee was ever an astrological or
astronomical thing of value in the years befor it became "Dark Moon"?
(8) The origin of the BML glyph (was it the DML glyph originally)?
(9) The awakening that MLA and BML have the same longitude.
(10) The erroneous ephemerides in circulation for FML or BML.
(11) Who first used the term "Dark Moon - called Lilith"?
(12) The Russian words for Dark Moon, or is it Black Moon?
(13) French description today of this MLA point. Are they using the
original French word for "Dark" or have they converted it now to a
French word meaning Black?
(14) The use of the MLA in the U.S. before the FML was officially
abolished?
(15) Lunar apogee + perigree astrology before the Dark/Black/Lilith
additions arrived?

[......]

Ray

[Hermes]

Ray Murphy" <***@chariot.net.au> wrote:
[...]
: >Black Moon Lilith was invented/named sometime in the early 1930's,
: >i.e. shortly after the discovery of Pluto.
:
: RM: It's sad that after years of discussing Lilith and Black Moon and
: Dark Moon, most astrologers still haven't got a clue what the history
: is. You might be right; perhaps Black Moon Lilith was invented or
: named in 1930, but you'd think with all the academics running around
: in astrology-world, someone would have compliled something definitive
: about the connections between:
: (1) The old 19th century invisible satellite and it's Lilith
: connections.
: (2) The mean lunar apogee and it's earliest association with "Dark
: Moon" (in French).
: (3) The leap from "Dark Moon" to "Dark Moon-Lilith" in France
: (4) The leap from Dark Moon to Black Moon
: (5) The abolition of the FML (Fake Moon Lilith) satellite - called
: Dark Moon.
: (6) The declaration and transferance of all FML attributes to BML
: (7) Whether the Mean Lunar apogee was ever an astrological or
: astronomical thing of value in the years befor it became "Dark Moon"?
: (8) The origin of the BML glyph (was it the DML glyph originally)?
: (9) The awakening that MLA and BML have the same longitude.
: (10) The erroneous ephemerides in circulation for FML or BML.
: (11) Who first used the term "Dark Moon - called Lilith"?
: (12) The Russian words for Dark Moon, or is it Black Moon?
: (13) French description today of this MLA point. Are they using the
: original French word for "Dark" or have they converted it now to a
: French word meaning Black?
: (14) The use of the MLA in the U.S. before the FML was officially
: abolished?
: (15) Lunar apogee + perigree astrology before the Dark/Black/Lilith
: additions arrived?
:
: [......]

At least in the case of Pierre Rougie / Dom Neroman, it should
probably not be too difficult to get reliable information about
how/when he did what regarding the mean lunar apogee.

For all I can see, he was a well-known French astrologer and
has written several books, of which some are available at
www.amazon.fr. Here are the titles:

- Le nombre d'or. Cle du monde vivant.
(The Golden Ratio. Key to the living world)

- La lecon de Platon.
(Plato's Lesson)

- Grand encyclopedie illustree des sciences occultes.
(Great illustrated Encyclopedia of the Occult Sciences)

Patrice Guindard mentions him and includes his chart in the
following article called "French Astrology in the 20th Century":

http://cura.free.fr/docum/16afr-en.html

I guess it would be just a matter of asking the right people
(French astrologers, I guess) to get some quite reliable info.
It really appears that Lilith is a bit of a blind/dark/black
spot as far as english-speaking sources go.

My statement above, "Black Moon Lilith was invented/named sometime
in the early 1930's, i.e. shortly after the discovery of Pluto",
is essentially based on a statement by Juan Antonio Revilla (and
on my general judgement of the situation considering all that I
have seen related to Lilith). Juan writes:

: The "Mean Apogee" is the most popular of the alternative "Black Moons",
: mainly because it has been used for a much longer time than all the
: others, and also because astrologers often are not aware of the
: alternatives. It seems to have been introduced into astrological practice
: in France by Don Neroman (Pierre Rougie, 1884-1953) in the early or mid
: 1930's. He apparently was also the first to call it "Black Moon".

Source: http://www.noeltyl.com/techniques/040331.html

I am aware of his careful choice of words ("seems"/"apparently").

)o+

[Asbolo]

Post by Hermes
It seems to have been introduced into astrological practice
in France by Don Neroman (Pierre Rougie, 1884-1953) in the early or mid
1930's. He apparently was also the first to call it "Black Moon".
http://www.noeltyl.com/techniques/040331.html

I took this information from the Spanish translation of "L'Enigme du
Zodiaque", written by Jacques Sadoul (Paris, 1971). The author gives
biographical information on Dom Néroman / Pierre Rougié in Chapter 6,
where he asserts that he introduced the Black Moon into astrology, and
in Chapter 9 deals with the Black Moon, where he asserts that it was "a
recent invention from the years 30-35 due to the ingenious mind of
Néroman". He gives no specific references, but in the Bibliography
mentions the book "Planètes et destins" written by Néroman (Paris,
1933).

Juan

[Ray Murphy]

----------

Post by Asbolo

Post by Hermes
It seems to have been introduced into astrological practice
in France by Don Neroman (Pierre Rougie, 1884-1953) in the early or mid
1930's. He apparently was also the first to call it "Black Moon".
http://www.noeltyl.com/techniques/040331.html

I took this information from the Spanish translation of "L'Enigme du
Zodiaque", written by Jacques Sadoul (Paris, 1971). The author gives
biographical information on Dom Néroman / Pierre Rougié in Chapter 6,
where he asserts that he introduced the Black Moon into astrology, and
in Chapter 9 deals with the Black Moon, where he asserts that it was "a
recent invention from the years 30-35 due to the ingenious mind of
Néroman". He gives no specific references, but in the Bibliography
mentions the book "Planètes et destins" written by Néroman (Paris,
1933).
Juan

RM: I don't know the French language, but I've heard that the words
used by Néroman to describe the point he was interested in, meant
"Dark Moon" in English, rather than "Black Moon".

Ray

[Asbolo]

Post by Ray Murphy
RM: I don't know the French language, but I've heard that the words
used by Néroman to describe the point he was interested in, meant
"Dark Moon" in English, rather than "Black Moon".>
Ray

In French it is "Lune Noire", which in the Spanish translations is
rendered as "Luna Negra" = Black Moon.

I found here a text by Didier Racaudhere entitled "LA LUNE NOIRE SELON
DOM NEROMAN":

http://www.paganguild.org/pissier/divers/lilith_et_le_ciel02.htm

It contains the following quote from Dom Néroman himself:

[BEGIN QUOTE]
D'abord, pour les gestations solaires ou tropiques, Dom Néroman dit
au sujet de Lilith : "Je crois que l'on doit tenir compte non pas
des luminaires en soi Soleil et Lune dont l'accouplement forme le
Dieu HORUS mais de l'accouplement Soleil-Lilith ou Soleil-Lune noire,
pour deux raisons que je vais dire en peu de mots : la première,
capitale, est que l'être qui s'incarne à la fécondation, à
l'instant de la fusion du spermatozoïde et de l'ovule, est un
être purement animal ; à ce titre il relève du facteur de la
fécondation qui est Lilith (et son opposite Priape) ; il est
justiciable de cette Lune noire qui représente tout le grouillement
organique de notre biosphère. La seconde raison est que pendant la
triamorie solaire, Lilith décrit un signe zodiacal avec une exactitude
suffisante pour forcer la réflexion : il en résulte que l'aspect
Soleil-Lilith varie d'un trigone pendant la durée de la triamorie ou
de la gestation : il est clair que le trigone reconstitue
l'atmosphère du couple Soleil-Lilith et ce jeu explique que si la
triamorie solaire détruit le trigone recrée ; la triamorie détruit
le fœtus mais le trigone crée définitivement l'être dont la
fécondation n'avait créé que le germe animal, l'œuf initial
nécessaire à l'être humain projeté, mais si infiniment éloigné
de lui dans l'échelle des espèces."
[END QUOTE]

As is unfortunate often the case with with astrological authors, no
bibliographical reference is given for the text quoted.

As you can see, Neroman uses the terms "Lune noire" and (unfortunately)
"Lilith" and "Priape" (for the opposite point). So it apparently is a
question of how to translate the adjective "noire".

Different terms for the same thing, different things with the same
term, lack of understanding of how it is calculated or even of what it
is astronomically, several different ways of calculating it, the
proponents of each (e.g. the French and Dutch "corrected" apogee
--astronomically meaningless and wrong-- which they call true, the
"interpolated" apogee, the osculating whicj is often wrongly called
"oscillating", differences of opiniuon about what the word "true"
means, assertions that "true" is not true, calling "nonsense" or "close
to nonsense" the use of the osculating apogee, assuming that an author
/ researcher works with the Mean Apogee when in reality she works
exclusively with the osculating apogee, failure to be explicit abd
clear about which version one is referring to, completely identifying
the apogee or second focus with "Lilith", endless, circular arguments
in this forum, etc. etc.

... this confusion is what the Black Moon stands for in Modern
Astrology. To me, what this proves is not that it is all worthless or
wrong or silly: it means that despite the consistent neglect by
"mainstream" Astrology, the Black Moon keeps screaming for recognition
of the elusive, alluring, dark, tantalizing, dreamy, confusing,
irrational, contradictive, but essential aspect of the human individual
and collective psyche that it represents.

Juan

[Ray Murphy]

----------

Post by Asbolo

Post by Ray Murphy
RM: I don't know the French language, but I've heard that the words
used by Néroman to describe the point he was interested in, meant
"Dark Moon" in English, rather than "Black Moon".>
Ray

In French it is "Lune Noire", which in the Spanish translations is
rendered as "Luna Negra" = Black Moon.

RM: The question about the terminology "Dark Moon" or "Black Moon"
probably wouldn't exist if we didn't have 3 different points to deal
with; but my understading was that astrologers differentiated between
those three points [empty focus; apogee + satellite] by using the name
Dark or Black.

Post by Asbolo
I found here a text by Didier Racaudhere entitled "LA LUNE NOIRE SELON
http://www.paganguild.org/pissier/divers/lilith_et_le_ciel02.htm
[BEGIN QUOTE]
D'abord, pour les gestations solaires ou tropiques, Dom Néroman dit
au sujet de Lilith : "Je crois que l'on doit tenir compte non pas
des luminaires en soi Soleil et Lune dont l'accouplement forme le
Dieu HORUS mais de l'accouplement Soleil-Lilith

RM: Ah, so Dom Néroman *did* use the name Lilith in something he wrote
before 1953.
I had the impression the Lilith name was a recent add-on to the French
"Dark Moon" in the 80's or 90's.

Post by Asbolo
ou Soleil-Lune noire,
pour deux raisons que je vais dire en peu de mots : la première,
capitale, est que l'être qui s'incarne à la fécondation, à
l'instant de la fusion du spermatozoïde et de l'ovule, est un
être purement animal ; à ce titre il relève du facteur de la
fécondation qui est Lilith (et son opposite Priape) ; il est
justiciable de cette Lune noire qui représente tout le grouillement
organique de notre biosphère. La seconde raison est que pendant la
triamorie solaire, Lilith décrit un signe zodiacal avec une exactitude
suffisante pour forcer la réflexion : il en résulte que l'aspect
Soleil-Lilith varie d'un trigone pendant la durée de la triamorie ou
de la gestation : il est clair que le trigone reconstitue
l'atmosphère du couple Soleil-Lilith et ce jeu explique que si la
triamorie solaire détruit le trigone recrée ; la triamorie détruit
le fœtus mais le trigone crée définitivement l'être dont la
fécondation n'avait créé que le germe animal, l'œuf initial
nécessaire à l'être humain projeté, mais si infiniment éloigné
de lui dans l'échelle des espèces."
[END QUOTE]
As is unfortunate often the case with with astrological authors, no
bibliographical reference is given for the text quoted.

RM: Most of us don't know how to do it :-)

Post by Asbolo
As you can see, Neroman uses the terms "Lune noire" and (unfortunately)
"Lilith" and "Priape" (for the opposite point). So it apparently is a
question of how to translate the adjective "noire".

RM: Christine said something about French-named Dark chocolate having
the prefix or suffix "noire", but in any case the French language
surely has a word for Black if one wants to say black.

Post by Asbolo
Different terms for the same thing, different things with the same
term, lack of understanding of how it is calculated or even of what it
is astronomically, several different ways of calculating it, the
proponents of each (e.g. the French and Dutch "corrected" apogee
--astronomically meaningless and wrong-- which they call true, the
"interpolated" apogee,

RM: It's all very fuzzy. I can accept the possibility of the mean
lunar apogee having some use in astrology, and I can accept the
possibility that the True apogee could be an important TIME once a
month that could be meaningful in astrology, but I cannot wrap my
brain aound the concept of "joining the dots" -- interpolating between
those times when lunar apogee occurs each month, and making an
"ephemeris" out of it. To me it looks like making an ephemeris out of
a series of eclipses and claiming that the intermediate points are
meaningful.

Post by Asbolo
the osculating whicj is often wrongly called
"oscillating",

RM: That would be exasperating for those who know the difference -- a
bit like hearing someone refer to a parabolic dish a hyperbolic dish
:-)

Post by Asbolo
differences of opiniuon about what the word "true"
means, assertions that "true" is not true, calling "nonsense" or "close
to nonsense" the use of the osculating apogee, assuming that an author
/ researcher works with the Mean Apogee when in reality she works
exclusively with the osculating apogee, failure to be explicit abd
clear about which version one is referring to, completely identifying
the apogee or second focus with "Lilith", endless, circular arguments
in this forum, etc. etc.

RM: I'm trying to encourage everyone to break away from those circular
arguments -- not because I have anything much to offer (of a technical
or academic nature) but because I can cajole those who CAN present
evidence to come forward.

Post by Asbolo
... this confusion is what the Black Moon stands for in Modern
Astrology. To me, what this proves is not that it is all worthless or
wrong or silly: it means that despite the consistent neglect by
"mainstream" Astrology, the Black Moon keeps screaming for recognition
of the elusive, alluring, dark, tantalizing, dreamy, confusing,
irrational, contradictive, but essential aspect of the human individual
and collective psyche that it represents.

RM: Astrologers are often viewed even by their peers, as being fairly
gullible people who accept anything that sounds good, but we all know
that there's a reasonable proportion of them who don't; so the claim
that mainstream astrology has neglected the Black Moon (in it's
various forms) may well be discernment rather than neglect. If it *is*
discernment, then it looks good for basic astrology and the
credibility of astrologers who subscribe to it - whether they are
right or wrong about sidelining Black Moon until more anecdotal
evidence comes in.

Post by Asbolo
Juan

Ray

[Hermes]

Asbolo wrote:
: > It seems to have been introduced into astrological practice
: > in France by Don Neroman (Pierre Rougie, 1884-1953) in the early or mid
: > 1930's. He apparently was also the first to call it "Black Moon".
: > http://www.noeltyl.com/techniques/040331.html
:
: I took this information from the Spanish translation of "L'Enigme du
: Zodiaque", written by Jacques Sadoul (Paris, 1971). The author gives
: biographical information on Dom Nroman / Pierre Rougi in Chapter 6,
: where he asserts that he introduced the Black Moon into astrology, and
: in Chapter 9 deals with the Black Moon, where he asserts that it was "a
: recent invention from the years 30-35 due to the ingenious mind of
: Nroman". He gives no specific references, but in the Bibliography
: mentions the book "Planètes et destins" written by Nroman (Paris,
: 1933).

Thanks a lot for this information (and the one in the later post).

I have nothing to add to the facts, but instead something symbolic.

Place and year of the above book by Jacques Sadoul, "Paris, 1971"
coincide with place and year of death of Jim Morrison, the lead
singer of "The Doors". This was especially captivating to me,
because I had just calculated the birth and death charts of Jim
Morrison a few minutes before reading your post, in an attempt to
understand a bit more about the complex of Lilith, Hera/Juno,
and astrological houses.

Jim Morrison:
* 1943-12-08 11:55 Melbourne (FL) in the USA (15:55 UTC)
+ 1971-07-03 ??:?? Paris (France), in a bathtub

Another Sagittarius born during World War II, this one a year
after Robert Hand and Alice Schwarzer. According to the death
certificate, he died of a heart attack, which would point at
Leo, where his natal Pluto/n.node conjuction is at 8 degrees,
and which was roughly transited at the time of his death by
Juno (4 degress). But the cause of his death is disputed.

I think I understand now quite a bit more about Hera and how
she is related to Lilith and Eve, to astrological houses and
to France and the USA. It is actually quite simple.

Nonetheless, I felt it more appropriate to post my findings
to alt.astrology.tropical, because the chart of that group
felt more suitable to be able to express the rather subtle
attributes of Hera than this group. In addition, I feel it
was Larry's original post that set the theme for my search.

So, if you want to know, simply point your news browsers to
alt.astrology.tropical to the post "Hera and Houses". (Note
that it may take a while until it shows up there, maybe up
to 24 hours after this post comes through).

It is really astonishing how simple and direct something
apparently very complex can become if one just looks at it
from the right angle... :)

Anyone curious ?

[Ed Falis]

Post by Hermes
Another Sagittarius born during World War II, this one a year
after Robert Hand and Alice Schwarzer. According to the death
certificate, he died of a heart attack, which would point at
Leo, where his natal Pluto/n.node conjuction is at 8 degrees,
and which was roughly transited at the time of his death by
Juno (4 degress). But the cause of his death is disputed.

Interestingly, primary directed saturn conjoins the 4th with 9' arc for
the date of his death.

- Ed

[Hermes]

I wrote:

: I think I understand now quite a bit more about Hera and how
: she is related to Lilith and Eve, to astrological houses and
: to France and the USA. It is actually quite simple.
:
: Nonetheless, I felt it more appropriate to post my findings
: to alt.astrology.tropical, because the chart of that group
: felt more suitable to be able to express the rather subtle
: attributes of Hera than this group. In addition, I feel it
: was Larry's original post that set the theme for my search.
:
: So, if you want to know, simply point your news browsers to
: alt.astrology.tropical to the post "Hera and Houses". (Note
: that it may take a while until it shows up there, maybe up
: to 24 hours after this post comes through).
:
: It is really astonishing how simple and direct something
: apparently very complex can become if one just looks at it
: from the right angle... :)
:
: Anyone curious ?

The posts "Hera and Houses" (in three parts) are up now.

I hope I didn't promise too much.

Of course, it was also aam's own quarreling couple (Ray and
Christine) that inspired me to the post and the ones before.
Since I have Mars-Venus-Jupiter conjunct (in that order) in
Cancer in the 12th, it relates also quite a bit to at least
some parts of me.

Anyway...

)o+

[Christine]

"Hermes" <***@exactphilosophy.net> schreef in bericht news:hermes-***@news.sunrise.ch...
[..]

Post by Hermes
Of course, it was also aam's own quarreling couple (Ray and
Christine) that inspired me to the post and the ones before.

Perhaps you would also care to explain in what way?

It's flattering to feel that one provided the inspiration for another to
take action, as I have been myself by people like Liz Greene and Ingrid
Naiman, but I don't know as if I like the reason :-)
I have never personally felt that I 'quarrel' with anyone, not even with
Ray, and it's rather sad to think that such exchanges of words are always
seen as quarreling, whereas it's simply a question of different viewpoints
and opinions about many things. And everyone is entitled to an own opinion,
aren't they? It's when someone (tries to) ram(s) their personal opinions
down another's throat that the other may well begin to gag and gasp for some
free air.
Our exchange of views may become heated at times but I don't think they
occur any more or less often than with others on the several astrology
groups in which he takes part, or they with him. Consequently, I find it
more than strange that it's our names that are linked with the infamous
reputation.
Putting it bluntly, he simply wandered into the field signed 'BML' in which
I am quietly and steadily grazing..... with a red flag :-)

Post by Hermes
Since I have Mars-Venus-Jupiter conjunct (in that order) in
Cancer in the 12th, it relates also quite a bit to at least
some parts of me.

We share a Mars in Cancer; active imagination. My Jupiter in Leo in the 12th
house is not aspected to it. Yours is undoubtedly greater :-)

Regards,
Christine.

Post by Hermes
Anyway...
)o+

[Ray Murphy]

----------

Post by Christine
[..]

Post by Hermes
Of course, it was also aam's own quarreling couple (Ray and
Christine) that inspired me to the post and the ones before.

Perhaps you would also care to explain in what way?
It's flattering to feel that one provided the inspiration for another to
take action, as I have been myself by people like Liz Greene and Ingrid
Naiman, but I don't know as if I like the reason :-)

RM: This would make a very interesting new thread because we have all
been motivated by other asrologers (and non-astrologers) along the
way. One of my biggest motvators is a skeptic or perhaps he's only a
pseudo-skeptic of astrology.

Post by Christine
I have never personally felt that I 'quarrel' with anyone, not even with
Ray,

RM: Well if you don't quarrel with me, then you could get along with
anyone.

Post by Christine
and it's rather sad to think that such exchanges of words are always
seen as quarreling, whereas it's simply a question of different viewpoints
and opinions about many things. And everyone is entitled to an own opinion,
aren't they?

RM: I thought you were just a low learner :-))>

Post by Christine
It's when someone (tries to) ram(s) their personal opinions
down another's throat that the other may well begin to gag and gasp for some
free air.

RM: Well that lets me off the hook because I keep right away from
imposing my opinions on anyone unless I tell them beforehand that I'm
going to try. Fact-ramming is another matter if I'm surronded by urban
myths.

Post by Christine
Our exchange of views may become heated at times but I don't think they
occur any more or less often than with others on the several astrology
groups in which he takes part, or they with him.

RM: We disagree more often, but that's only because you are here a lot
more than Heather.

Post by Christine
Consequently, I find it
more than strange that it's our names that are linked with the infamous
reputation.

RM: I wouldn't worry about it, because the record shows that we have
disgreed hundreds of times, and some of that could reasonably be
called quarrelling.
I don't argue or 'quarrel' with Martin or Michael because they are
usually right, or make a clear distinction between knowledge and
speculation.

Post by Christine
Putting it bluntly, he simply wandered into the field signed 'BML' in which
I am quietly and steadily grazing..... with a red flag :-)

RM: The flag will look more pale as time goes by.

[....]

Post by Christine
Christine.

Ray

[Christine]

Post by Ray Murphy
----------

[..]

Post by Ray Murphy

Post by Christine
Our exchange of views may become heated at times but I don't think they
occur any more or less often than with others on the several astrology
groups in which he takes part, or they with him.

RM: We disagree more often, but that's only because you are here a lot
more than Heather.

[..]
Heather's probably a workaholic who doesn't have access for privacy during
the day, so can't allow herself time off for morning coffee and afternoon
tea breaks.

Post by Ray Murphy

Post by Christine
Christine.

Ray

[Keera Ann Fox]

Post by Christine

Post by Ray Murphy
----------

[..]

Post by Ray Murphy

Post by Christine
Our exchange of views may become heated at times but I don't think they
occur any more or less often than with others on the several astrology
groups in which he takes part, or they with him.

RM: We disagree more often, but that's only because you are here a lot
more than Heather.

[..]
Heather's probably a workaholic who doesn't have access for privacy during
the day, so can't allow herself time off for morning coffee and afternoon
tea breaks.

Or simply doesn't have news access at work. I don't, unless I use Google
Groups, but I'm not a masochist. :-) Participating in newsgroups is a
hobby for me, anyway, not a professional necessity. (I can moderate from
work, however.)

[Christine]

Post by Keera Ann Fox

Post by Christine
Heather's probably a workaholic who doesn't have access for privacy during
the day, so can't allow herself time off for morning coffee and afternoon
tea breaks.

Or simply doesn't have news access at work. I don't, unless I use Google
Groups, but I'm not a masochist. :-)

There's an unofficial 'ban' here on using company computers for private
usage, anyway.
So many firms seemed to do a great deal of business with, or through, porno
sites :-)

Participating in newsgroups is a

Post by Keera Ann Fox
hobby for me, anyway, not a professional necessity.

Same for me, but you can boast a personal website so professional necessity
may play more of a role than you think :-)

Post by Keera Ann Fox
(I can moderate from
work, however.)
--
Keera in Norway ~~ Think big. Shrink to fit.
http://home.online.no/~kafox/

Regards,
Christine.

[Keera Ann Fox]

Post by Christine

Post by Keera Ann Fox

Post by Christine
Heather's probably a workaholic who doesn't have access for privacy
during the day, so can't allow herself time off for morning coffee and
afternoon tea breaks.

Or simply doesn't have news access at work. I don't, unless I use Google
Groups, but I'm not a masochist. :-)

There's an unofficial 'ban' here on using company computers for private
usage, anyway.
So many firms seemed to do a great deal of business with, or through, porno
sites :-)

Or with sites that offer massive amounts of mp3's to download and choke
servers with. ;-)

Post by Christine

Post by Keera Ann Fox
Participating in newsgroups is a
hobby for me, anyway, not a professional necessity.

Same for me, but you can boast a personal website so professional necessity
may play more of a role than you think :-)

You lost me. My website is just another hobby.

[Christine]

Post by Hermes
: Hi Hermes,
: I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make by Lilith and
: Chiron-NN, which do not aspect each other.
: Their Moons are also in different signs.
: But, at 1a.m, it could be my mind is a bit slow :-)
I only have a partial argument for the moment.
Like you, I see no connection between Lilith and Cheiron-NN in
the mentioned charts of Robert Hand and Alice Schwarzer.
However, in my experience, whenever I look at Lilith, Sagittarius
or Cheiron is often also prominently there. (In mythology, the
constellation of Sagittarius is Cheiron (or at least one of the
centaurs) that was put into the sky - so that Sagittarius and
Cheiron often appear together is no surprise, but provides no
direct link to Lilith).

Hello again,
I consider Sagittarius to be about going beyond the evident mundane (Virgo)
and, through the power of reason (in mythology, that which separates god
from man), seeking/finding further fields of expansion of it. I can fully
understand why Sagitttarius would be prominent in people 'well-known' for
such and, especially, if fame, as per the planet (or Black Moon Lilith) in
Sagittarius, is found far beyond the borders of their
land/roots/culture/beliefs of birth .

I believe Chiron to be an active part in furthering that process because it
takes man beyond the restrictions of his old reasoning into entirely
different; i.e. the difference between Saturn and Uranus through which
orbits Chiron's
own orbit crosses. One could see this as the transference from Capricorn to
Aquarius: or the difference between their joint rulership of Aquarius. I
understand that Prometheus is often associated with Aquarius and, in
mythology, it was Chiron who exchanged places with him to die a mortal
rather than live on as a god. To me, this bears nothing of the feeling of
Sagittarius within it, which is indicative of how man can rise above his
physical basic instincts (lower half horse/upper half man). Lilith would
seem to refer to natural instincts.

Post by Hermes
Let me try to look a bit deeper, let me try to look back to the
time that the Black Moon Lilith was "invented".
In February 1930, a new planet, later called Pluto, was spotted
in the USA. Since Pluto is the god of the underworld, it was not
very far fetched to make him the ruler of Scorpio.

Yet, as I understood it, Percy Lowell's daughter named it after the Disney
character...the dog. Pluto as God of the underworld didn't enter into the
reasoning behind its name.
A dog is still a 'beast' that lives through the instincts and/or a trained
behaviour pattern, and has no conscious reasoning powers. (A friend, a
police dog trainer, told me that. I always thought dogs possessed an element
of
reason.)

However, it also

Post by Hermes
appears to me that Pluto does not capture all the elements of the
darker, female side of Mars. Pluto does go deep, but is he much
aggressive, compulsive ? Wars are not only won by the male, bright
side of Mars, with honor and high aspiration. Treason and going
lower than the enemy can also win a war ("female mud wrestling").
In the Middle Ages, Mars was feared along with Saturn as one of
the bringers of evil, death and destruction.
So, what I am saying is that taking away rulership of Scorpio from
Mars is something that must have created huge tensions in people,
more precisely collectively and largely unconsciously.
Black Moon Lilith was invented/named sometime in the early 1930's,
i.e. shortly after the discovery of Pluto. Thus Lilith and Pluto
are connected.

This agrees with the general notion within astrology that there are
similarities between the two.
I can only go along with it in the sense that, accepting Lilith as a part of
astrology, Pluto refers to the primitive instincts of (collective) survival,
whilst I consider Lilith to refer to 'natural' instincts of nature.

Post by Hermes
And, since the discovery of Pluto had a grave impact
on the symbolism of Mars, there is naturally a also a connection
between Mars and Lilith.

I agree with this in the sense that Mars refers to outer action/courage and
Lilith refers to inner feelings of the same, which may or may not find
manifestation through the planet's function with which it is aspected. (e.g.
Mars is at the midpoint of my Uranus-Lilith square. You think it was easy to
express an active imagination into radical astrological thought? :-) )

Post by Hermes
It comes as no surprise to me that Lilith was invented in France,
since France is sort of the twin brother of the USA, seen from the
USA often as the evil twin ("Liberty Fries"). What made these two
essentially brothers were the modern revolutions of 1776 and 1789,
both with the sun in Cancer.
The guy who invented Black Moon Lilith was Pierre Rougie. "Rouge"
is French for "red", i.e. a reference to Mars (while "Pierre" means
rock, a reference to Saturn). He used the pseudonym Dom Neroman.
"Nero" is Italian/Latin for "black", i.e. a reference to Lilith
(while "Dom" reminds of "Domus", i.e. house).
That suggests quite strongly that Lilith is a creation of Mars,
his way of taking revenge for the loss of rulership over Scorpio
to Pluto: A guy with "red" in his real name, i.e. really Mars,
is using a pseudonym that contains "black", i.e. Lilith. As the
above suggests, he was maybe helped by Saturn ("Pierre"/"rock")
who himself had lost rulership over Aquarius in 1781. (And there
seems again to be a connection to astrological houses, but this
is rather a sidetrack from the main argument, and not something
that I understand much at the moment).
There are variants of the myth of Adam and Lilith in which they
were Siamese Wwins, grown together back to back. (That reminds a
bit of Janus, the roman god of January, thus related to Saturn).
Jewish religion is strongly linked to the Age of Aries, since it
emerged roughly around the beginning of it, according to legend
when Abraham, father of all Jews, left the city of Ur.
So, the myth of Adam and Lilith is clearly related to the Age of
Aries, in which one would expect people to focus mainly on the
male aspects of Mars, i.e. rather on Adam than on Eve. It is thus
not astonishing that Eve was banned in that myth and replaced by
a more docile, domesticated wife (again a hint at the houses).

I understood that the Lilith myth went further back in time and it was
'adopted' into Jewish myth. That could place it in Taurus- Cancer.
I assumed you meant to write that 'Lilith' was banned; not Eve as
representing the docile wife; i.e. Moon.

Post by Hermes
Another reaction to the discovery of Pluto was the subsequent
rise of Fascism, World War II and also the Shoa/Holocaust.
Fascism had a mythology called "Blut und Boden", "Blood and Soil".
That is again related to Mars (blood is red, related to War and
also to menstruation) and to Earth (soil; again also related to
Saturn and I think also to houses, since they are probably more
often called "Felder", "fields" in German).
And, of course, the Holocaust consisted of a systematic destruction
(although fortunately an incomplete one) of Jews, i.e. of the male
side of Mars. So, Pluto, Mars, Lilith and also Saturn and Houses
are related to the Holocaust, World War II and Fascism.
Both Robert Hand and Alice Schwarzer have Jewish origins and they
were born during World War II. That relates them strong to these
issues, as well as many other prominent astrologers, like also Liz
Greene (born in New Jersey, like Robert Hand, just after the war).
In my orginal discoveries document,
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/discoveries.pdf
: Psychologically, Chiron is intended to provide a balance to Pluto,
: to heal rather than to penetrate boundaries and to head the wounds
: of the holocaust.
Summing things up, I am tempted to give the following definition
Lilith := Mars - male Mars - Pluto + elements of male Saturn*
(+ a relation to houses ?)

Our minds run along similar channels regarding 'blood and menstruation' but
'as something that it largely female' as you stated below, may I offer my
own ideas to your own?

Would you say that Mars, as a planet, represents physical manifestation of
its function? Lilith, astrologically, is not a planet. It is a point
representing non-manifestion, the non-physical; a concept of what could,
would, might happen EXTERNALLY *if* it ever gained or was allowed the sole
(i.e. solar =Sun) ability of manifestation. Therefore it can represent a
time when 'life's blood' is not a physical manifestation.

In a female this refers to the time before/after the moon's monthly flow
cycles. The age of natural innocence (pre menstruation) and the age of
wisdom (anti-menstruation). 'Eve' (the moon which shines only through the
Sun) rules imbetween.
Reading the Lilith myth through this perspective gives a totally different
concept to its meaning......even regarding the serpent :-).
Even the first passages of Old Testament 'Genesis' state that in the
beginning, the world was without form and the spirit of God was all around.
Does 'spirit' mean something alongside of, messenger of, or within, God?
In other words, Lilith was there long before Adam came onto the scene :-).
Instinct?

How do males refer to their 'life's blood' ? Could Lilith not refer to that
which could, would, might happen but did not physically manifest, but is
evident 'internally' ?

Post by Hermes
* i.e. some of those elements that had been removed from Saturn when
he lost his rulership over Aquarius to Uranus.
Of course, the above definition, since it is rather abstract and
mathematical and formulated in words, is male (element Air), i.e.
it cannot fully describe something that is largely female.

[..]

Regards,
Christine.

[Hermes]

Christine wrote:
[...]

Thanks a lot for the feedback. Especially the argument that
Lilith has no body, is something that I think I did not give
sufficient consideration, so far.

[...]
: > In February 1930, a new planet, later called Pluto, was spotted
: > in the USA. Since Pluto is the god of the underworld, it was not
: > very far fetched to make him the ruler of Scorpio.
:
: Yet, as I understood it, Percy Lowell's daughter named it after the Disney
: character...the dog. Pluto as God of the underworld didn't enter into the
: reasoning behind its name.
: A dog is still a 'beast' that lives through the instincts and/or a trained
: behaviour pattern, and has no conscious reasoning powers. (A friend, a
: police dog trainer, told me that. I always thought dogs possessed an element
: of reason.)
[...]

It is difficult to find trustworthy facts on the internet, but
it appears that the girl who chose the name "Pluto" was not the
daughter of Percy Lowell, but an 11-year old schoolgirl from
Oxforshire with the name Venetia Burney.

(11 reminds me of Heracles' 11th task, where he had to get apples
from Hera's garden of the Hesperides. To me a little girl is the
strongest image for fate that there can be, also related to Cancer
and the first Fate Clotho; c.f. posts to alt.astrology.tropical).

About the relation to Walt Disney:

: Mickey's dog, though yet unnamed, made his debut in "The Chain Gang"
: in 1930 - the same year the planet made its debut to earthlings.
: Pluto, the Disney character, was named the following year, which
: leads Disney archivists to assume the dog took the name of the planet
: dominating the news at the time, said Disney archives director Dave
: Smith.

Source: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/050215_pluto_anniv.html

I guess this still does not exclude that the girl's choice of
name was related to Disney cartoons.

It is interesting, though, to note that Walt Disney's wife
Lilly (<=>Lilith) had two failed pregnancies sometime between
1928 and 1933; their first child was born 18 December 1933.

By the way, I have played with dogs and they do play tricks
on you, which cat's don't. But that were not trained dogs.

)o+

[Ray Murphy]

----------

Post by Hermes
[...]
Thanks a lot for the feedback. Especially the argument that
Lilith has no body, is something that I think I did not give
sufficient consideration, so far.
[...]
: > In February 1930, a new planet, later called Pluto, was spotted
: > in the USA. Since Pluto is the god of the underworld, it was not
: > very far fetched to make him the ruler of Scorpio.
: Yet, as I understood it, Percy Lowell's daughter named it after the Disney
: character...the dog. Pluto as God of the underworld didn't enter into the
: reasoning behind its name.
: A dog is still a 'beast' that lives through the instincts and/or a trained
: behaviour pattern, and has no conscious reasoning powers. (A friend, a
: police dog trainer, told me that. I always thought dogs possessed an element
: of reason.)
[...]
It is difficult to find trustworthy facts on the internet, but
it appears that the girl who chose the name "Pluto" was not the
daughter of Percy Lowell, but an 11-year old schoolgirl from
Oxforshire with the name Venetia Burney.

RM: See: http://www.amblesideonline.org/PR/PR62p030PlanetPluto.shtml
This shows that Venetia suggested the name for the newly discovered
planet on 14th March, 1930 immediately after hearing her grandfather
read about the discovery (3 weeks earlier) in their English newspaper.
Venetia had considered the great distance of the planet from earth,
and also the naming patterns in existence - using the Roman and Greek
gods. Venetia's great uncle had previously named Moons.
The suggested name was sent by telegram the next day by Venetia's
grandfather to the Lowell observatory. After the Royal Astronomical
Society approved of the name, the grandfather sent a cheque to
Venetia's schoolteacher in recognition of her assistance.

We can leave out Pluto, the Disney cartoon dog, from here on.

Ray

[Ray Murphy]

----------

Post by Hermes
[...]
Thanks a lot for the feedback. Especially the argument that
Lilith has no body, is something that I think I did not give
sufficient consideration, so far.
[...]
: > In February 1930, a new planet, later called Pluto, was spotted
: > in the USA. Since Pluto is the god of the underworld, it was not
: > very far fetched to make him the ruler of Scorpio.
: Yet, as I understood it, Percy Lowell's daughter named it after the Disney
: character...the dog. Pluto as God of the underworld didn't enter into the
: reasoning behind its name.

[.....]

Post by Hermes
It is difficult to find trustworthy facts on the internet, but
it appears that the girl who chose the name "Pluto" was not the
daughter of Percy Lowell, but an 11-year old schoolgirl from
Oxforshire with the name Venetia Burney.
(11 reminds me of Heracles' 11th task, where he had to get apples
from Hera's garden of the Hesperides. To me a little girl is the
strongest image for fate that there can be, also related to Cancer
and the first Fate Clotho; c.f. posts to alt.astrology.tropical).
: Mickey's dog, though yet unnamed, made his debut in "The Chain Gang"
: in 1930 - the same year the planet made its debut to earthlings.
: Pluto, the Disney character, was named the following year, which
: leads Disney archivists to assume the dog took the name of the planet
: dominating the news at the time, said Disney archives director Dave
: Smith.
Source: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/050215_pluto_anniv.html
I guess this still does not exclude that the girl's choice of
name was related to Disney cartoons.

RM: I've just had a look at the Ausralian version of "Chronicle of the
20th Century", which is a huge collection of newspaper stories, photos
and drawings.

18th Feb., 1930 -- "A new planet, orbiting beyond Neptune, has been
discovered by the American astronomer Clyde Tombaugh. It has been
named Pluto. Astronomers have searched for such a planet for many
years, as it could explain peculiarities in the orbit of Uranus.
Hitherto however, they have been unsuccessful. Tombaugh started work a
year ago comparing pictures of the same part of the sky taken at
different times, in the hope of detecting an object moving against the
fied background of the stars. He compared thousands of pictures, each
showing tens or hundreds of thousands of stars, before he was
eventually successful. Pluto is so distant that the change in it's
position was only just detectable."

[If anyone insists on squeezing a Lily into the timeframe mentioned
above, I suppose you could use the fact that the famous "Lily Langtry"
died (on 12th Feb, 1929) at about the time when Tombaugh began his
arduous search for the new planet].

24th May, 1930 -- U.S. The name "Pluto" given to the planet discovered
in February is officially recognised.
-----------------
So it seems that the name Pluto was used on the day it was found if
the news reports of the day are reported accurately in the book I
quoted above. It seems also that the astronomer who actually did the
work and FOUND the new planet was sidelined.

Ray

[Asbolo]

Post by Ray Murphy
So it seems that the name Pluto was used on the day it was found if
the news reports of the day are reported accurately in the book I
quoted above. It seems also that the astronomer who actually did the
work and FOUND the new planet was sidelined.
Ray

At he time, Clyde Tombaugh (b. 4 Feb 1906) was only a talented amateur
who had built his own telescope and had no funds to go to college. He
had been hired by the Lowell Observatory for the tedious,
time-consuming task of comparing photographic plates. In 1932 he was
awarded a scholarship and finally entered the Univ. of Kansas as a
freshman to study Astronomy.

http://archives.nmsu.edu/exhibits/tombaugh_website/bio.html

Juan

[Christine]

Post by Ray Murphy
RM: I've just had a look at the Ausralian version of "Chronicle of the
20th Century", which is a huge collection of newspaper stories, photos
and drawings.

So ~that~ is how you always know so much !;-)

Post by Ray Murphy
18th Feb., 1930 -- "A new planet, orbiting beyond Neptune, has been
discovered by the American astronomer Clyde Tombaugh. It has been
named Pluto. Astronomers have searched for such a planet for many
years, as it could explain peculiarities in the orbit of Uranus.
Hitherto however, they have been unsuccessful. Tombaugh started work a
year ago comparing pictures of the same part of the sky taken at
different times, in the hope of detecting an object moving against the
fied background of the stars. He compared thousands of pictures, each
showing tens or hundreds of thousands of stars, before he was
eventually successful. Pluto is so distant that the change in it's
position was only just detectable."
24th May, 1930 -- U.S. The name "Pluto" given to the planet discovered
in February is officially recognised.
-----------------
So it seems that the name Pluto was used on the day it was found if
the news reports of the day are reported accurately in the book I
quoted above. It seems also that the astronomer who actually did the
work and FOUND the new planet was sidelined.

How come Percy Lowell's name is linked with Pluto then ?
I just had a look in my definitive dictionary (more than just explanantions
of word meanings; names, expressions are also included). Percy Lowell wasn't
even listed and Clyde Tombaugh was ' the astronomer (1930) who discovered
Pluto.'

Is there birth data available for Tombaugh? He doesn't appear to have been
famous enough to have made my 'scientists' data base, whereas Lowell was!

Christine.

Post by Ray Murphy
Ray

[Ray Murphy]

----------

Post by Hermes
: Hi Hermes,
: I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make by Lilith and
: Chiron-NN, which do not aspect each other.
: Their Moons are also in different signs.
: But, at 1a.m, it could be my mind is a bit slow :-)
I only have a partial argument for the moment.
Like you, I see no connection between Lilith and Cheiron-NN in
the mentioned charts of Robert Hand and Alice Schwarzer.
However, in my experience, whenever I look at Lilith, Sagittarius
or Cheiron is often also prominently there. (In mythology, the
constellation of Sagittarius is Cheiron (or at least one of the
centaurs) that was put into the sky - so that Sagittarius and
Cheiron often appear together is no surprise, but provides no
direct link to Lilith).

RM: During the 20th century Chiron has spent only 4.5% of the time in
Sagittarius. Most of the time it was in Aquarius to Taurus (57%).

[.....]

Ray

[Hermes]

Ray Murphy wrote:
: RM: During the 20th century Chiron has spent only 4.5% of the time in
: Sagittarius. Most of the time it was in Aquarius to Taurus (57%).

One hundred hands... :)

There is one talk that Liz Greene gave in spring 2000 at the
Astrology World Congress in Lucerne, Switzerland, of which I
only remember very little: It was about Chiron, World War II
and she mentioned the peculiar orbit of Chiron and there the
fact that Chiron remained in some signs a lot longer than in
others.

I have no clue at the moment, how "20", "4.5%". "57%", the signs
"Sagittarius", "Aquarius" and "Taurus" are linked to the issues
discussed previously, although it feels quite a bit to me that
they have, and in very interestings ways so.

In my limited experience, there is a strive in all signs towards
the next sign of the same element (the one at a trine). For me as
a Leo, there is a clear trend towards Sagittarius.

Conversely, it appears to me that it is often quite refreshing
for Sagittarians to once in a while do some straight, concrete
(Aries) stuff again. This is also how I see Zeus's ability to
escape from traps, like where he used his hundred hands, his
skills given by nature, to easily escape any corner that others
might try to put him into.

Liz Greene described in "Astrology for Lovers" how she once saw
in France how a Scorpion committed suicide when it was cornered
by a few kids. Sagittarius, the next sign in the zodiac, can
escape this kind of situations, Scorpio's notion of "rather rule
in hell than serve in heaven" no longer applies.

I think in the couple of Hera and Zeus/Jupiter (<=>Sagittarius)
each of them knows typically a lot more about his/her partner
than they usually say. Zeus enjoyed to be tied up, because he
knew that he could easily escape, which was fun too. Hera knew
very well that (unlike with Prometheus), Zeus would not let her
hang for a long time. And Zeus knew that she knew that and Hera
knew that he knew that, and ...

That is also a theme that I connect to houses, something that
has no closed description, issues that cannot be computed and
are therefore not easily accessible to science.

I guess it was in the summer of 2003 that I at one point looked
at houses and found also the number 54, a university in Australia
that tried to prove something a bit similar than in my discoveries
document, something related roughly to synchronicity, and there
where other things.

Anyway, I still have no clue about 20, 4.5, 57, etc. :)

During these posts, there was a constellation in the sky that
looks a bit like a very broad yod: Pluto biquintile Mercury,
Venus and Saturn, and all of them quintile Jupiter. Since the
yod (2 quincunxes and a sextile) is also called the Finger of
God, I am tempted to say that Zeus/Jupiter's thumb was pointing
to Libra, the male/Air side of Venus (rather than Earth/Taurus).

2|'s swiss messenger,

)o+

[Hermes]

I wrote:
: During these posts, there was a constellation in the sky that
: looks a bit like a very broad yod: Pluto biquintile Mercury,
: Venus and Saturn, and all of them quintile Jupiter. Since the
: yod (2 quincunxes and a sextile) is also called the Finger of
: God, I am tempted to say that Zeus/Jupiter's thumb was pointing
: to Libra, the male/Air side of Venus (rather than Earth/Taurus).
:
: 2|'s swiss messenger,

That I am really just the messenger, a surfer that goes surfing
when the surf's up and tries to find a good mix between directing
the surfboard and feeling the waves, should be obvious from the
fact that the above constellation did not enter my mind until
sunday afternoon. (Which relates also to issues related to Hera
like synchronicity and telepathy again -- 3 year old girl about
a week ago, dream about apples, and more...)

[Christine]

"Hermes" <***@exactphilosophy.net> schreef in bericht news:hermes-***@news.sunrise.ch...
[..]

Post by Hermes
In my limited experience, there is a strive in all signs towards
the next sign of the same element (the one at a trine). For me as
a Leo, there is a clear trend towards Sagittarius.

It may not be 'a strive' as such. Imho, the following sign of the same
element simply encompasses a stage of advancement above its predecessor.
Hypothetically, a Leo Sun, for instance, may need to undergo experience of
the following signs, Virgo through Scorpio, in order to understand the
complexes of duality within and which face Sagittarius. It cannot do that
without having seen both sides of the coin, its own individuality in
relationship with that of another. Virgo is the first hurdle. It's the sign
where Leo is faced with showing exactly what man is made of and to sift the
chaff from the corn.

Post by Hermes
Conversely, it appears to me that it is often quite refreshing
for Sagittarians to once in a while do some straight, concrete
(Aries) stuff again. This is also how I see Zeus's ability to
escape from traps, like where he used his hundred hands, his
skills given by nature, to easily escape any corner that others
might try to put him into.

My mentors explained the zodiac signs as a spiral.So, imho, if Sag. looks
towards Aries for further advancment, it's going to be of a higher nature
than Sag. itself, in which the 'beast in man' is conquered. I believe Aries
is also symbolised by the Magician of the tarot. Aries becomes the Spirit of
Man that has the ability to create its own destiny.

Post by Hermes
Liz Greene described in "Astrology for Lovers" how she once saw
in France how a Scorpion committed suicide when it was cornered
by a few kids. Sagittarius, the next sign in the zodiac, can
escape this kind of situations, Scorpio's notion of "rather rule
in hell than serve in heaven" no longer applies.

IOW, Scorpio self destructs when it is cannot free itself of the wilful
effect others have upon it ?
How many people feel that life is no longer worth living when *the one they
have lived their life for* no longer wants/needs them? Liz may have failed
to mention that there is also a phoenix associated with Scorpio that rises
from the ashes to live a new day. Freeing one's self from the 'emotional
value of others' of Scorpio leads to the next step in Sagittarius; freeing
one's self of others' ideas, judgments, individual opinions and beliefs, in
order to form one's own.

Post by Hermes
I think in the couple of Hera and Zeus/Jupiter (<=>Sagittarius)
each of them knows typically a lot more about his/her partner
than they usually say. Zeus enjoyed to be tied up, because he
knew that he could easily escape, which was fun too. Hera knew
very well that (unlike with Prometheus), Zeus would not let her
hang for a long time. And Zeus knew that she knew that and Hera
knew that he knew that, and ...
That is also a theme that I connect to houses, something that
has no closed description, issues that cannot be computed and
are therefore not easily accessible to science.

The houses form a path of advancement within human consciousness in their
own right.
I cannot conceive the inference of mythological application of Zeus/Hera's
relationship to them.
[..]
Regards,
Christine.

Post by Hermes
2|'s swiss messenger,
)o+

[Hermes]

Christine wrote:
: The houses form a path of advancement within human consciousness in their
: own right.
: I cannot conceive the inference of mythological application of Zeus/Hera's
: relationship to them.

In my view and experience, houses themselves do not evolve
or advance much; they are static. It is the planets in them
or especially transiting through them that advance and also
learn, I guess.

In that sense, I see a clear contrast between the circle of
the 12 houses and the circle of the 12 signs of the zodiac.
The 12 signs really flow in a circle; there is a story, an
evolution with flowing boundaries from sign to sign, what
Liz Greene might call "the mythological path" in life. I do
not see much of that in houses themselves, although I do see
it in the motion of planets through them.

I am talking mainly about natal houses here, not much about
the quick daily movement of houses that is probably too quick
for anybody to follow consciously (at least on a daily basis).
Natal houses are fated; they are (even more so than the moon)
the things that mother and child can influence most in a birth
chart; an hour earlier or later can make a huge difference,
while the signs are more solar, the moment of conception often
defines the sun sign almost with certainty; thus the father
has a greater influence on the signs in which planets are.

Conscious conception is not Hera's bailiwick. Zeus only had
a chance in disguise of a cuckoo. When her son Hephaistos,
had her tied to a chair and made her swear by the Styx that
he had really no father, she must (at least at that moment)
have been 100% convinced that this is so. But Hera is not
Hestia, who never conceived at all, who remained a virgin
during all her life. (Hera used to claim that she was the
firstborn child or her father Cronos/Saturn, thus claiming
the role of her older sister, Hestia, I guess also because
fathers often love the firstborn daughter distinctively
more than the younger daughters).

Hera does conceive, only it is not much conscious to her,
at least not when you ask directly, but new discoveries are
certainly Hera's bailiwick, something that she does take
care of and manage, only in her very peculiar and delicate
way, in which she does sometimes recognize some things
consciously and, at other times, act rather intuitively or
emotionally, whatever seems or feels more appropriate in
a given situation.

I am sure not all that I wrote above is fully correct, but,
as a man, I certainly do stick to the insight that houses,
as well as Lilith, have to do with Earth and Air, and hope
to expose this quite clearly in two or three posts that I
hope to write this weekend. I intend to present essentially
two tools that I use for analysis, the first is what I call
"associative carpets" and the second is logic, the use of
elementary concepts in astrology. I intend to review many
of the associations and pieces of logic that were mentioned
recently in the related threads and hope that a coherent
picture regarding at least some aspects of these complexes
will emerge from the aethers (cf. Orcus)...

Thanks for all of your input and insights. :)

)o+

--
Into this house we¹re born
Into this world we¹re thrown
Like a dog without a bone
An actor out on loan
Riders on the storm
There¹s a killer on the road

His brain is squirmin¹ like a toad
Take a long holiday
Let your children play
If ya give this man a ride
Sweet memory will die
Killer on the road, yeah

Girl ya gotta love your man
Girl ya gotta love your man
Take him by the hand
Make him understand
The world on you depends
Our life will never end
Gotta love your man, yeah

-- Jim Morrison / The Doors in "Riders on the Storm"

[Christine]

Post by Hermes
: The houses form a path of advancement within human consciousness in their
: own right.
: I cannot conceive the inference of mythological application of Zeus/Hera's
: relationship to them.
In my view and experience, houses themselves do not evolve
or advance much; they are static.
It is the planets in them
or especially transiting through them that advance and also
learn, I guess.

I agree with you. By 'paths of advancement' I meant that the 2nd house is a
realm of experience further than the the first house, 3rd house a step
further than 2nd house etc.etc. Maybe they do evolve in the spiral sense,
just like a person can begin in a bed-sitter and end up owning his own
mansion, according to how he uses his opportunities. The 'traditional 7' all
complete more than one orbit in the expanse of a lifetime, so their transits
through the houses must act as a 'stepping stone' in that respect.

Post by Hermes
In that sense, I see a clear contrast between the circle of
the 12 houses and the circle of the 12 signs of the zodiac.
The 12 signs really flow in a circle; there is a story, an
evolution with flowing boundaries from sign to sign, what
Liz Greene might call "the mythological path" in life. I do
not see much of that in houses themselves, although I do see
it in the motion of planets through them.

I follow your line of thought. Signs are the person, houses- the realm of
experience that 'person' will encounter, the planet - the function he will
apply in/to that house.
The sign=house=planet is something astrologers have long discussed. Yet,
with no birth time provided, a chart can provide a lot of information using
that very system.
Astrologically rather than philosophically speaking, imho the greatest
difference in interpretation of a house comes with use of the sign at its
cusp. Cancer on a cusp is going to act entirely different towards the
situation it find itself in than Libra on that same cusp.

Post by Hermes
I am talking mainly about natal houses here, not much about
the quick daily movement of houses that is probably too quick
for anybody to follow consciously (at least on a daily basis).
Natal houses are fated; they are (even more so than the moon)
the things that mother and child can influence most in a birth
chart; an hour earlier or later can make a huge difference,
while the signs are more solar,

the moment of conception often

Post by Hermes
defines the sun sign almost with certainty; thus the father
has a greater influence on the signs in which planets are.

That might be a question of interpretation of which came first; the chicken
or the egg :-)

Post by Hermes
Conscious conception is not Hera's bailiwick. Zeus only had
a chance in disguise of a cuckoo. When her son Hephaistos,
had her tied to a chair and made her swear by the Styx that
he had really no father, she must (at least at that moment)
have been 100% convinced that this is so. But Hera is not
Hestia, who never conceived at all, who remained a virgin
during all her life. (Hera used to claim that she was the
firstborn child or her father Cronos/Saturn, thus claiming
the role of her older sister, Hestia,

I guess also because

Post by Hermes
fathers often love the firstborn daughter distinctively
more than the younger daughters).

Wow; you've surely put the cat among the pigeons with that view :-)

Fathers are 'proud' of their firstborn, whatever gender. It is proof of
their own creative power. Very Leo...or 5th house!
But fathers ( from group conversations I've heard) also seem to have more
difficulty with their feminine offspring growing up into women whereby they,
as fathers, are replaced by another hero in their affections.
A daughter that remains a virgin always stays 'his little girl'. There's no
competition for her affection.
Or, maybe Hera was just plain jealous of Hestia?

Post by Hermes
Hera does conceive, only it is not much conscious to her,
at least not when you ask directly, but new discoveries are
certainly Hera's bailiwick, something that she does take
care of and manage, only in her very peculiar and delicate
way, in which she does sometimes recognize some things
consciously and, at other times, act rather intuitively or
emotionally, whatever seems or feels more appropriate in
a given situation.
I am sure not all that I wrote above is fully correct, but,
as a man, I certainly do stick to the insight that houses,
as well as Lilith, have to do with Earth and Air,

Yet Lilith is not part of Greek philosophy. I wonder, as such, how you can
incorporate her legend within its unravelling?

and hope

Post by Hermes
to expose this quite clearly in two or three posts that I
hope to write this weekend. I intend to present essentially
two tools that I use for analysis, the first is what I call
"associative carpets" and the second is logic, the use of
elementary concepts in astrology. I intend to review many
of the associations and pieces of logic that were mentioned
recently in the related threads and hope that a coherent
picture regarding at least some aspects of these complexes
will emerge from the aethers (cf. Orcus)...
Thanks for all of your input and insights. :)

Any input and insight that I may have provided has been from observation
tinged with a logical approach towards astrology. Your own insights to
astrology appear to come solely through its mythological context applied to
human consciousness.
I feel we are both travelling towards the same destination, but one of us is
on the highway whilst the other is on the road that runs alongside it. Yet
we're still able to wave to each other :-).

Regards,
Christine.

Post by Hermes
)o+
--
Into this house we¹re born
Into this world we¹re thrown
Like a dog without a bone
An actor out on loan
Riders on the storm
There¹s a killer on the road
His brain is squirmin¹ like a toad
Take a long holiday
Let your children play
If ya give this man a ride
Sweet memory will die
Killer on the road, yeah
Girl ya gotta love your man
Girl ya gotta love your man
Take him by the hand
Make him understand
The world on you depends
Our life will never end
Gotta love your man, yeah
-- Jim Morrison / The Doors in "Riders on the Storm"

[Hermes]

Christine wrote:

: > Thanks for all of your input and insights. :)
:
: Any input and insight that I may have provided has been from observation
: tinged with a logical approach towards astrology. Your own insights to
: astrology appear to come solely through its mythological context applied to
: human consciousness.

I think that is essentially only how it appears in public.

As I said, I am a physicist and have worked several years in
research. Physics is essentially observation (experiment) plus
strictly applied logic (mathematically formulated theories).
Anybody who studies physics (successfully) must be talented
in these areas. When physicists talk/write to other physicists,
they often skip many details, they skip some logical steps
whenever they assume that the reader will be able to "connect
the dots", will be able to verify the logic whenever deemed
necessary or revealing. This minimalism is also important for
research, because it takes some of the focus off the math and
leaves more room for nature, for understanding and thinking
about how nature is.

I guess it is at least in part because I often skip many steps
(assuming falsely that astrologers will be able to connect the
dots) that what I write appears to lack logic and also seems
not to be based on direct experience. That is not at all so;
it is just not made evident in all details.

: I feel we are both travelling towards the same destination, but one of us is
: on the highway whilst the other is on the road that runs alongside it. Yet
: we're still able to wave to each other :-).

I have no clue where exactly I am going or whether I will
get anywhere. None at all. You could probably tie me to a
chair like Hera, and I would swear by the Styx that I have
no clue. Yet, there is a clear purpose visible behind the
erratic, artistic, symbolic, diverse appearances; strict
logic based on a lot of experience.

Which closes the circle by leading me back to the first
statement that I made in this context, some 20 posts ago.

Time for a review..

)o+

[Ray Murphy]

----------

Post by Hermes
: > Thanks for all of your input and insights. :)
: Any input and insight that I may have provided has been from observation
: tinged with a logical approach towards astrology. Your own insights to
: astrology appear to come solely through its mythological context applied to
: human consciousness.
I think that is essentially only how it appears in public.
As I said, I am a physicist and have worked several years in
research. Physics is essentially observation (experiment) plus
strictly applied logic (mathematically formulated theories).
Anybody who studies physics (successfully) must be talented
in these areas. When physicists talk/write to other physicists,
they often skip many details, they skip some logical steps
whenever they assume that the reader will be able to "connect
the dots", will be able to verify the logic whenever deemed
necessary or revealing.This minimalism is also important for
research, because it takes some of the focus off the math and
leaves more room for nature, for understanding and thinking
about how nature is.
I guess it is at least in part because I often skip many steps
(assuming falsely that astrologers will be able to connect the
dots) that what I write appears to lack logic and also seems
not to be based on direct experience. That is not at all so;
it is just not made evident in all details.

RM: I'm connecting some dots right now. I'm certain that you mean
'average astrologers' and not all astrologers.

Post by Hermes
: I feel we are both travelling towards the same destination, but one of us
: is on the highway whilst the other is on the road that runs

alongside it. Yet

Post by Hermes
: we're still able to wave to each other :-).

RM: Who's suposedly on the highway; I can't tell from this height?

Post by Hermes
I have no clue where exactly I am going or whether I will
get anywhere. None at all. You could probably tie me to a
chair like Hera, and I would swear by the Styx that I have
no clue. Yet, there is a clear purpose visible behind the
erratic, artistic, symbolic, diverse appearances; strict
logic based on a lot of experience.
Which closes the circle by leading me back to the first
statement that I made in this context, some 20 posts ago.
Time for a review..
)o+

Ray

[Christine]

Post by Hermes
: I feel we are both travelling towards the same destination, but one of us is
: on the highway whilst the other is on the road that runs alongside it. Yet
: we're still able to wave to each other :-).
I have no clue where exactly I am going or whether I will
get anywhere. None at all. You could probably tie me to a
chair like Hera, and I would swear by the Styx that I have
no clue. Yet, there is a clear purpose visible behind the
erratic, artistic, symbolic, diverse appearances; strict
logic based on a lot of experience.
Which closes the circle by leading me back to the first
statement that I made in this context, some 20 posts ago.
Time for a review..
)o+

I hope you find the road you seek.
Maybe that's the significance of your BML in Pisces? Finding the clue (or
point) that will help you seek that which does not appear to be there? :-))

Regards,
Christine.

[LibraLove]

In 2001 Christine wrote this is such a neat description of Lilith in an
old AAMOD post, so coool... and even if BML does suck men's precious
bodily essense... until they are weak and helpless. LOL

"I use the mathematical point position, obtained from the apogee of the
Moon
to Earth. I use the MEAN position, as also given by Astrodienst ( and
who
would dare to differ!). I have recently read a Dutch book that uses the
'
corrected position' , which allows for a retrograde motion and can be
as
much as 15 degrees different to the mean position. This position
doesn't
work for me but then I am looking at Lilith from a different
perspective
than the author. "

"I've been studying Black Moon Lilith's position in a natal chart for
over
two years. I can give you my definition of its effects, but it does not
mean
it will be seen as astrologically correct! I make no claim to that
effect.
There are many ideas concerning Lilith on the web, including Lee
Lehmann's
and M. Kelley Hunter's. Also essays written by various astrologers.
Most go
for the idea of feminism, the vamp, femme fatale, or the witchy bitchy
hag
when crossed! This makes sense but, in my opinion, is not all of the
picture. "

�"I see Black Moon Lilith as representing a natural feminine side that
is
often suppressed. I don't mean feminine frocks and frills but an inner
feeling sense that one denies, or is/has been denied, in order to be
accepted and conform to Saturn's behavioural system. Inside, one lives
with
an inner feeling of being wrong(ed). I believe Lilith to be about
equality
of Feminine with Masculine; attraction and repulsion. One suppresses or

denies a natural feeling expression of the sign qualities Black Moon
Lilith
is in. I use words like hidden, self-denial, exile, non-existence,
persona-non-grata and, especially, disconnection, to explain the
effects of
this side. Black Moon Lilith can use a shield of 'acting as if it
doesn't
need any body' ."

"In female charts, the need for the right to exist as an
equal, bringing out one's femininity and womanhood, is more apparent.
In
male charts, there is something about that same femininity and
womanhood, in
the form of wife, lover, family, female boss,etc. that one finds
attractive,
but also repulsive because it takes away their sense of their
'masculinity'. "

"The house position of Lilith shows the area of experience where this
hidden
side will be subjected to make its presence felt. In the charts I have
studied, Lilith ' surfaces' through the opposing sign and house. In a
way,
this seems logical to me. If �something in Lilith's sign is recognised
as
existing, it will surface to be used in active expression through the
opposing sign. I stress that I see Lilith as an inner feeling sense.
The
aspects it makes to the physical planets will strengthen its inner
active
force. "

"In myth, Lilith is the untameable animal-like woman. I also have a
notion
that Lilith could refer to qualities inherent with the sixth sense.
Instinct, gut-feeling, intuition, psychic ability, shamanism,
white/black
magic, the evil and/or demonic mind. Strangely, when the U.S. said that
more
human intelligence (i.e. spies) was needed to infiltrate in areas where

technology has failed, I immediately thought of transit Black Moon
Lilith in
Pisces. A new sort of Mata Hari...or men in disguise giving the
illusion of
who they aren't :-))

Just an idea of how my mind works!
Christine."

So Christine -- I love this that you wrote awhile back. What animal
representation is she -- is she the screech owl? I would like to know
if she is symbolized by any animals.

Thanks! Best to You -- LL

[Christine]

[..] snip

Post by LibraLove
Just an idea of how my mind works!
So Christine -- I love this that you wrote awhile back.

It refreshed my memory too:-)
I didn't think the archives went back that far.
Thank you. I'd better go back and re-check a lot of what I've probably
forgotten :-)

What animal

Post by LibraLove
representation is she -- is she the screech owl? I would like to know
if she is symbolized by any animals.

This is the general opinion from what I can gather. I believe the ancient
name for Lilith means 'screeching owl'.
The ancient sculptured figure of Lilith shows a goddess type figure with
bird-like wings and feet/claws.
The owl, being a night figure, obviously offers thought associations of
Lilith's association with blackness/darkness.
I also think the symbolism is interesting when one remembers that an owl
never cares for its offspring and there is total abandonment and neglect
after laying the egg. The chick instinctively kills that which stands in
its way for self-survival, yet is associated with wisdom when fully grown.

M. Kelley Hunter....and another article I read but can't remember
whose....associated Lilith with the big cats.
You have one guess at what my favorite bird and animals are......and long
before I ever heard of Lilith. :-)

I have several small statuettes in my garden. One is of a young decently but
scarcely clad Nubian maiden holding a water pitcher in her right hand;
another is of an owl. The maiden was bought in the summer of 1999, barely a
week before I heard of Lilith for the first time through Hunter's TMA
article. I placed it in the garden with the owl beside it. They looked right
together to my way of thinking, although I had no idea why at the time. I
find the symbolism striking.

I remember years ago giving a workshop on Saturn, in which I had asked
everyone beforehand to draw their impression of what Saturn signified to
them. My own drawing was Saturn's symbol (cross above sikkel moon) that was
somehow incorporated within the face, eyes and beak of an owl with it's
university cap at an angle on its head. I have long since wondered if I was
really drawing Black Moon Lilith :-)

Post by LibraLove
Thanks! Best to You -- LL

Regards,
Christine.

[LibraLove]

I am amazed at reading about Lilith from the Epic of Gilgamesh, a
Sumerian text, written reportedly 1950-1700 B.C.E (now means Before
Common Epic -- used to be B.C. or Before Christ).

The Huluppa Tree (Linden tree?) story about Innana tending the tree so
lovingly to make a a throne and a bed from the wood, the dragon
building a nest at the foot of the tree, the Zu-bird had nested at the
crown and Lilith had built her house in the middle. Gilgamesh heard
about her troubles with these squatters and he came with his gigantic
bronze axe and heavy shield and killed the dragon. Then the Zuzu fled
into the mountains with its young while Lilith tore down her house and
fled into the wilderness. :)

So cool these old stories! -- LL

[Christine]

Post by LibraLove
I am amazed at reading about Lilith from the Epic of Gilgamesh, a
Sumerian text, written reportedly 1950-1700 B.C.E (now means Before
Common Epic -- used to be B.C. or Before Christ).

Is that so? I thought to have read that B.C.E. meant 'Before Christian Era".
What does "Before Common Epic" mean ?

Post by LibraLove
The Huluppa Tree (Linden tree?) story about Innana tending the tree so
lovingly to make a a throne and a bed from the wood, the dragon
building a nest at the foot of the tree, the Zu-bird had nested at the
crown and Lilith had built her house in the middle. Gilgamesh heard
about her troubles with these squatters and he came with his gigantic
bronze axe and heavy shield and killed the dragon. Then the Zuzu fled
into the mountains with its young while Lilith tore down her house and
fled into the wilderness. :)
So cool these old stories! -- LL

Are you finding any part of yourself responding to them and trying to impart
something to you?
I notice you now have transiting MEAN Black Moon Lilith conjunct your Pluto,
to open up your large Leo PL-ASC-MA-JU stellium, as well as transiting
Uranus squaring itself and opposing the MEAN Black Moon Lilith -Chiron
conjunction.

My own interest with BML in 1999 began when transiting BML crossed my I.C.
and tr. Pluto opposed Uranus square BML-CH. conjunction.

The same planets, an angle, and BML are involved, albeit in different
aspects. I wonder if your journey 'inwards' will be as revealing and
rewarding to you as mine was for me :-).

Regards,
Christine.

[Richard Nolle]

Post by Christine

Post by LibraLove
I am amazed at reading about Lilith from the Epic of Gilgamesh, a
Sumerian text, written reportedly 1950-1700 B.C.E (now means Before
Common Epic -- used to be B.C. or Before Christ).

Is that so? I thought to have read that B.C.E. meant 'Before Christian Era".
What does "Before Common Epic" mean ?

Actually, BCE = Before Common Era, and it refers to the same years as BC (=
Before Christ). Likewise, CE = Common Era, referring to the same years as AD
(=Anno Domini, Latin for Year of Our Lord, a reference to Jesus).

BCE and CE are ecumenical terms, enabling people of any religion (or no religion
at all) to discuss history without having to use terminology belonging to one
particular religion. The Common Era in this case refers to the Gregorian
calendar used in the Western world.

It is arguably a mark of respect and honor toward all religions (and toward the
non-religious) to avoid exclusive and alienating vocabulary which implies that
any one religion somehow defines everything for everyone. Hence, BCE and CE.


--
Richard

http://www.astropro.com/
phone/fax = 480-753-6261

"Astrology is about time . . . what else is there?"

[Christine]

Post by Richard Nolle

Post by Christine

Post by LibraLove
I am amazed at reading about Lilith from the Epic of Gilgamesh, a
Sumerian text, written reportedly 1950-1700 B.C.E (now means Before
Common Epic -- used to be B.C. or Before Christ).

Is that so? I thought to have read that B.C.E. meant 'Before Christian Era".
What does "Before Common Epic" mean ?

Actually, BCE = Before Common Era, and it refers to the same years as BC (=
Before Christ). Likewise, CE = Common Era, referring to the same years as AD
(=Anno Domini, Latin for Year of Our Lord, a reference to Jesus).
BCE and CE are ecumenical terms, enabling people of any religion (or no religion
at all) to discuss history without having to use terminology belonging to one
particular religion. The Common Era in this case refers to the Gregorian
calendar used in the Western world.
It is arguably a mark of respect and honor toward all religions (and toward the
non-religious) to avoid exclusive and alienating vocabulary which implies that
any one religion somehow defines everything for everyone. Hence, BCE and CE.

Thank you for the defined explanation. The fact that BCE-CE still uses
Christ's supposed birth date as its beginning still seems to make it
'religiously bound', if you know what I mean? It may have seemed as if the
Christian faith was foregoing its 'year-telling' for the sake of
international relations, whereas it has actually enforced it :-)

Regards,
Christine.

Post by Richard Nolle
--
Richard
http://www.astropro.com/
phone/fax = 480-753-6261
"Astrology is about time . . . what else is there?"

[Chris Mitchell]

Post by Christine
Thank you for the defined explanation. The fact that BCE-CE still uses
Christ's supposed birth date as its beginning still seems to make it
'religiously bound', if you know what I mean? It may have seemed as if the
Christian faith was foregoing its 'year-telling' for the sake of
international relations, whereas it has actually enforced it :-)
Regards,
Christine.

It's not really to do with Jesus's birth date, though. Most
theologians accept that the guy who worked out Jesus's birth date
made a mistake, and that the events recorded in the New Testament must
have happened before 1CE (King Herod's existence is not in doubt, for
instance, and he died in 4BCE).

[Christine]

Post by Chris Mitchell

Post by Christine
Thank you for the defined explanation. The fact that BCE-CE still uses
Christ's supposed birth date as its beginning still seems to make it
'religiously bound', if you know what I mean? It may have seemed as if the
Christian faith was foregoing its 'year-telling' for the sake of
international relations, whereas it has actually enforced it :-)
Regards,
Christine.

It's not really to do with Jesus's birth date, though. Most
theologians accept that the guy who worked out Jesus's birth date
made a mistake, and that the events recorded in the New Testament must
have happened before 1CE (King Herod's existence is not in doubt, for
instance, and he died in 4BCE).

It *was* an attempt at tongue-in-the-cheek humour.

I was writing about the rituals involved with the date, saying how wonderful
a thing Faith is, when my computer suddenly malfunctioned and the text was
lost! (ALT-CTRL-DEL to re-start).

I am currently undergoing a 12th house Jupiter opposition from Neptune.
I'd better not push my luck :-)

Regards,
Christine.

[Ray Murphy]

----------

Post by Hermes

Post by Richard Nolle

Post by Christine

Post by LibraLove
I am amazed at reading about Lilith from the Epic of Gilgamesh, a
Sumerian text, written reportedly 1950-1700 B.C.E (now means Before
Common Epic -- used to be B.C. or Before Christ).

Is that so? I thought to have read that B.C.E. meant 'Before Christian

Era".

Post by Richard Nolle

Post by Christine
What does "Before Common Epic" mean ?

Actually, BCE = Before Common Era, and it refers to the same years as BC

(=

Post by Richard Nolle
Before Christ). Likewise, CE = Common Era, referring to the same years as

AD

Post by Richard Nolle
(=Anno Domini, Latin for Year of Our Lord, a reference to Jesus).
BCE and CE are ecumenical terms, enabling people of any religion (or no

religion

Post by Richard Nolle
at all) to discuss history without having to use terminology belonging to

one

Post by Richard Nolle
particular religion. The Common Era in this case refers to the Gregorian
calendar used in the Western world.
It is arguably a mark of respect and honor toward all religions (and

toward the

Post by Richard Nolle
non-religious) to avoid exclusive and alienating vocabulary which implies

that

Post by Richard Nolle
any one religion somehow defines everything for everyone. Hence, BCE and

CE.
Thank you for the defined explanation. The fact that BCE-CE still uses
Christ's supposed birth date as its beginning still seems to make it
'religiously bound', if you know what I mean? It may have seemed as if the
Christian faith was foregoing its 'year-telling' for the sake of
international relations, whereas it has actually enforced it :-)

RM: The use of a religion-based calendar wasn't meant to force
religious views on other cultures. They all had their own calendars,
and still do. Any "forcing" usually done with swords.
The Gregorian calendar took 350 years to be adopted in all countries,
and as far as I know there were no fights about it :-)
Hey, I wonder if we can find a way to escape from "Roman" or "Arabic"
numerals, or "French" fries, or the "Greek" alphabet in science.

This reminds me of the British government's placing of the
International Dateline in the Pacific (180 degrees West of Greenwich).
Just imagine what might have happened if they had still been on bad
terms with France -- they could have placed it in the centre of Paris
and had French citizens on each side of the road using different
dates!

Post by Hermes
Christine.

Ray

[Ray Murphy]

----------

Post by Richard Nolle

Post by Christine

Post by LibraLove
I am amazed at reading about Lilith from the Epic of Gilgamesh, a
Sumerian text, written reportedly 1950-1700 B.C.E (now means Before
Common Epic -- used to be B.C. or Before Christ).

Is that so? I thought to have read that B.C.E. meant 'Before Christian

Era".

Post by Christine
What does "Before Common Epic" mean ?

Actually, BCE = Before Common Era, and it refers to the same years as BC (=
Before Christ). Likewise, CE = Common Era, referring to the same years as AD
(=Anno Domini, Latin for Year of Our Lord, a reference to Jesus).
BCE and CE are ecumenical terms, enabling people of any religion (or no
religion at all) to discuss history without having to use terminology

belonging

Post by Richard Nolle
to one particular religion. The Common Era in this case refers to the

Gregorian

Post by Richard Nolle
calendar used in the Western world.

RM: It would also be used with the Julian calendar wouldn't it?

Post by Richard Nolle
It is arguably a mark of respect and honor toward all religions (and toward
the non-religious) to avoid exclusive and alienating vocabulary which

implies

Post by Richard Nolle
that any one religion somehow defines everything for everyone. Hence, BCE
and CE.

RM: I suppose the same sort of thing was done with GMT, by changing it
to UT, to try and disguise the origin of it.
Perhaps one day they'll all get together at the U.N. and make one
version of the nautical mile so that everyone is on the same page. I
suppose it's a bit late now to worry about the different versions of
the gallon.

Hey did anyone hear about a U.S. state that supposedly introduced
legislation many years ago to alter the value of pi to 3 ?
Was that some sort of joke, or did it really happen?

Post by Richard Nolle
--
Richard

Ray

[LibraLove]

Post by Christine

Post by LibraLove
I am amazed at reading about Lilith from the Epic of Gilgamesh, a
Sumerian text, written reportedly 1950-1700 B.C.E (now means Before
Common Epic -- used to be B.C. or Before Christ).

Is that so? I thought to have read that B.C.E. meant 'Before Christian Era".
What does "Before Common Epic" mean ?

I meant Epoch or Era.:-( Sorry. :-)

Post by Christine

Post by LibraLove
The Huluppa Tree (Linden tree?) story about Innana tending the tree so
lovingly to make a a throne and a bed from the wood, the dragon
building a nest at the foot of the tree, the Zu-bird had nested at the
crown and Lilith had built her house in the middle. Gilgamesh heard
about her troubles with these squatters and he came with his gigantic
bronze axe and heavy shield and killed the dragon. Then the Zuzu fled
into the mountains with its young while Lilith tore down her house and
fled into the wilderness. :)
So cool these old stories! -- LL

Are you finding any part of yourself responding to them and trying to impart
something to you?
I notice you now have transiting MEAN Black Moon Lilith conjunct your Pluto,
to open up your large Leo PL-ASC-MA-JU stellium, as well as transiting
Uranus squaring itself and opposing the MEAN Black Moon Lilith -Chiron
conjunction.

Hmnn... you really know my chart. LOL

Well, sort of odd really. I started taking a screenplay class with a
well-know UCLA scriptdoctor when my Progressed MC reached Sun at 6
Cancer.

While my SAD Pluto cojoined by natal Moon in Libra (5) conjunct Neptune
(1) on the cusp of my 3rd house (from the 2nd). Then my SAD MC conjoins
my Venus at 7 Cancer in November 2005.

T. Uranus is square my natal Uranus at 10 Gemini (soon to opp Lilith at
14 Virg) which is trine T. Jupiter at 10 Libra in my 3rd house. Uranus
backtracks to trine my Venus at 6 Cancer while Pluto trines my Mars and
Jupiter in Libra from the 5th. Mars is a juiced up MP with lots of
powerful pixs AND it is "critical" at 21 Leo.

Critical degrees when hit or when in a SR or a Progressed planet or
SAD, cause sh*t to happen and depending on other aspects can be for
good or difficult. But it is a real active degree when stuck by transit
or progression and stuff really happens!

Saturn is bearing down on my Pluto in the 12th at 7 Leo which is Pluto
and Ceres 6 Leo where sits Lilith now and the MP of Moon/Uranus and his
Moon and MC at 8 Leo. :)

So.... since my entire chart is contained within that trine from Moon
in Libra to Uranus in Gemini - 10th house and the MP is 8 Leo. There is
a powerful picture being painted it seems.

BML is 14 Virgo conjunct my TNP Cupido (family BML) like those Adams
family and TNP Apollon = business. My super-duper Jupiter is conjunct
Cupido and BML. Could I actually sell this screenplay perhaps?

http://finblake.home.mindspring.com/jpapollon.htm

http://www.arlenekramer.com/uranian_eightplanets.asp

Also the asteroid Apollo is conjunct my Asc. in Texas in Leo at 24
which is my natal Jupiter. I burn up here like an ovenin the summertime
-- I feel actually baked to the bone in this heat (Apollo conjunct my
Jupiter conjunct ASC) EXACT!

BML is ruled by Virgo and thus Mercury. So... I have
Mercury//Venus//Pluto and OOB natally. Ha! Think this woman can spin an
erotic tale.

Also my Moon/Jupiter = BML. LOL

Whaddya think? Anyway, I walked into class one afternoon and mentioned
Adam's first wife and they all perked up and wanted to hear the tale
about her.

"Adam's first wife. LOL Yeah, right!" chortled the scriptwriting class.
They were incredulous when I told them about her. Like, "Oh my God,
you're joking!" "Nope" said I.

So I did my step outline and cast of characters and then the instructor
said it was actually pretty decent start and had commercial value. I
planned it to be an erotic thriller.

So I started writing the story about a little girl who lived in
isolation with her mother and baby brother on an abandoned airbase. The
father was flying a single engine plan all the time and the mother was
a serial pet killer. Yeah, got that?

So after presenting the first 2 or 3 scenes, someone asked "Where is
Lilith"? And because I realized that mom was acting a lot like a bad
Lilith (the serial child and/or pet killer), but I really needed a good
Lilith too.

You know the Kali-Lalita Hindu polarity and I have 90 pages of dialogue
to complete by next Sunday (50 due day after tomorrow). She is written
about by other names in almost all ancient cultures it seems.

Then I had my Juno in Taurus (legal contracts) return and got a
contract on my parents lake cottage, so very busy with that too. And
then the Austin Pond Society Tour is Sat-Sun and I have to collect
tickets at one pond tomorrow pm.

So here I go into a screenplay basically about Lilith as requested
because the class found the idea of a woman made from dirt who would
not obey her husband vs. a woman cloned by God's early cloning
techniques from Adam's rib sort of an interesting story. LOL!

Since that Pluto is where T. Mean BML sits is the MP of my Moon/Uranus
trine containing my entire chart is 8 Leo -- it is a written tale of
erotic passion and a thriller. With the Moon of Mr. Man being 8 Leo and
that is also happens to be my Part of Marriage or ASC + Saturn - Venus.
Mr. Man is the erotic love interest. It is a very good tale, IMO.

He is very BML oriented with his BML at 3 Cancer conjunct my Mercury so
my erotic stories seduce his fantasy of the woman who does not exist
and comes to him in the darkness and sucks his energies dry. LOL

He has Mercury/Venus = my BML and his BML = my Mercury (his BML) making
a conjuncted Grand trine to his Neptune in Scorpio and Chiron in
Pisces, so...

In the same book of the Zohar, there is a woman who seduces a man with
her tales. And this tale I am writing stars him as the male
protagonist. I think he is the good guy, but then again maybe... ;-)

Several friends are telling me that I must write and finish this script
because I tell such interesting stories.

So I need to get off this group, take a nap and write 10 more pages
before tomorrow afternoon.

Christine, do my aspects fit my BML=Pluto in Leo transit? ;-)

Post by Christine
My own interest with BML in 1999 began when transiting BML crossed my I.C.
and tr. Pluto opposed Uranus square BML-CH. conjunction.
The same planets, an angle, and BML are involved, albeit in different
aspects. I wonder if your journey 'inwards' will be as revealing and
rewarding to you as mine was for me :-).

Yes, reward, as in cash, I hope. With BML in Virgo in the 2nd and
Mercury ruling the 2nd and the 11th (which is proceeds from career) and
my Uranus in Gemini in the 10th on the cusp of the 11th will bring some
financial rewards for my erotic thriller stories (or will the rewards
be invisible?) LOL

What's going on as BML passes over your Pluto as well?

All the Best -- LL

Post by Christine
Regards,
Christine.

[Christine]

Post by LibraLove
Hmnn... you really know my chart. LOL

I don't 'know' the chart, just have the data on file which makes it easy to
look up.

Post by LibraLove
Well, sort of odd really. I started taking a screenplay class with a
well-know UCLA scriptdoctor when my Progressed MC reached Sun at 6
Cancer.

[..]

Post by LibraLove
BML is ruled by Virgo and thus Mercury. So... I have
Mercury//Venus//Pluto and OOB natally. Ha! Think this woman can spin an
erotic tale.

Quite possibly, with sec. progr. retro. Mercury conjunct sec. prog. BML !

[..]

Post by LibraLove
Whaddya think? Anyway, I walked into class one afternoon and mentioned
Adam's first wife and they all perked up and wanted to hear the tale
about her.

[..]

Post by LibraLove
So I did my step outline and cast of characters and then the instructor
said it was actually pretty decent start and had commercial value. I
planned it to be an erotic thriller.

Does he/you know that there was a film made based on Lilith?
Jean Seberg and Warren Beatty starred, someone informed me quite a while
back.

Post by LibraLove
So I started writing the story about a little girl who lived in
isolation with her mother and baby brother on an abandoned airbase. The
father was flying a single engine plan all the time and the mother was
a serial pet killer. Yeah, got that?
So after presenting the first 2 or 3 scenes, someone asked "Where is
Lilith"? And because I realized that mom was acting a lot like a bad
Lilith (the serial child and/or pet killer), but I really needed a good
Lilith too.

[..]

Post by LibraLove
Since that Pluto is where T. Mean BML sits is the MP of my Moon/Uranus
trine containing my entire chart is 8 Leo -- it is a written tale of
erotic passion and a thriller.

[..]

Post by LibraLove
Christine, do my aspects fit my BML=Pluto in Leo transit? ;-)

If you're writing about your own childhood, in which names, places, and
events have been changed to protect the innocent child, it could well be :-)

Post by LibraLove

Post by Christine
My own interest with BML in 1999 began when transiting BML crossed my I.C.
and tr. Pluto opposed Uranus square BML-CH. conjunction.
The same planets, an angle, and BML are involved, albeit in different
aspects. I wonder if your journey 'inwards' will be as revealing and
rewarding to you as mine was for me :-).

Yes, reward, as in cash, I hope.With BML in Virgo in the 2nd and
Mercury ruling the 2nd and the 11th (which is proceeds from career) and
my Uranus in Gemini in the 10th on the cusp of the 11th will bring some
financial rewards for my erotic thriller stories (or will the rewards
be invisible?) LOL

I have always had the impression that you are well-provided financially, so
maybe it isn't money as much as your 'value and worth' that will be
rewarded.

Post by LibraLove
What's going on as BML passes over your Pluto as well?

Terrible trouble killing ghosts and laying them to rest! Dreams....or
nightmares... that so clearly defined what is and isn't so, and much I'll
never find the answer to, anyway :-)

Post by LibraLove
All the Best -- LL

Post by Christine
Regards,
Christine.

[LibraLove]

Post by Christine

Post by LibraLove
Hmnn... you really know my chart. LOL

I don't 'know' the chart, just have the data on file which makes it easy to
look up.

How logical. :-)

Post by Christine

Post by LibraLove
Well, sort of odd really. I started taking a screenplay class with a
well-know UCLA scriptdoctor when my Progressed MC reached Sun at 6
Cancer.

[..]

Post by LibraLove
BML is ruled by Virgo and thus Mercury. So... I have
Mercury//Venus//Pluto and OOB natally. Ha! Think this woman can spin an
erotic tale.

Quite possibly, with sec. progr. retro. Mercury conjunct sec. prog. BML !

Yes, an Prog. Apollo is there as well at 21 Virg with Pluto headed back
there now.

Also my Prog. Merc/-/Mars at 0 degrees Deks -- a powerful point.

Yes, and the Merc Retro sure helps! Then I have all those Cancer
planets with antiscia in Gemini. :-)

I forgot to include the Sun in the high Deks. So Sun//Mer//Venus//Pluto
and all are OOB at 23N+.

And they all dispose Moon in Libra or Sun in Cancer. An Virg -- Mercury
rules BML so she is a good fit to my life and writing. Plus Pallas is
feminist issues as is my Pallas at 3 Cancer which = Mr. Man's BML.

Pallas is fairness -- especially in regards to feminism. It is also DNA
sequencing and patterns which I have spent a lifetime doing in medical
and science publishing and still draw in technical drawings.

[...]

Post by Christine
Does he/you know that there was a film made based on Lilith?
Jean Seberg and Warren Beatty starred, someone informed me quite a while
back.

Yes, the 1964 art film, Lilth, was a dog, plus a couple of vampire and
B-films. No one has ever done her justice. The one in 1964 was sort of
Alfie meets nymphomaniac story. Not even close to my story. Also it was
later suggested that it was partly autobiographical of Warren Beaty.
LOL

[...]

Post by Christine

Post by LibraLove
Yes, reward, as in cash, I hope.With BML in Virgo in the 2nd and
Mercury ruling the 2nd and the 11th (which is proceeds from career) and
my Uranus in Gemini in the 10th on the cusp of the 11th will bring some
financial rewards for my erotic thriller stories (or will the rewards
be invisible?) LOL

I have always had the impression that you are well-provided financially, so
maybe it isn't money as much as your 'value and worth' that will be
rewarded.

Money (an worth) is always an issue with Moon conjunct Meptune in the
2nd house square Saturn in Cancer. It comes. -- It goes.

Post by Christine

Post by LibraLove
What's going on as BML passes over your Pluto as well?

Terrible trouble killing ghosts and laying them to rest! Dreams....or
nightmares... that so clearly defined what is and isn't so, and much I'll
never find the answer to, anyway :-)

Dreams and nighmares? Hmnn... Very difficult. Sorry. I do not have your
chart, so... no clue to the basis. What house? And pictures with it?

Post by Christine

Post by LibraLove
All the Best -- LL

Post by Christine
Regards,
Christine.

[Christine]

[..]

Post by LibraLove

Post by Christine

Post by LibraLove
What's going on as BML passes over your Pluto as well?

Terrible trouble killing ghosts and laying them to rest! Dreams....or
nightmares... that so clearly defined what is and isn't so, and much I'll
never find the answer to, anyway :-)

Dreams and nighmares? Hmnn... Very difficult. Sorry. I do not have your
chart, so... no clue to the basis. What house? And pictures with it?

Post by Christine

Post by LibraLove
All the Best -- LL

Not to worry. My strong Earth element makes for seeing sense, and I am
inclined to translate the strange dreams via astro. symbolism, e.g. police =
Saturn= ?, car = Mars = ?,etc. It helps to try to get at the core of their
meaning.
Maybe 'nightmares' was too strong a word; more like 'bad dreams' that left
an imprint on the conscious mind when waking from them. In one such dream, a
personage said, "It's all kid's stuff", which took 'me' aback. Yet it just
about says it all.
Maybe the time has come when that part of me has finally been dealt with. I
also have tr. Saturn conjunct NN, and tr. Neptune opp. Jupiter (ruler 4th
house). It's all tied up somehow, I think, but I'm still attempting to
unravel the wool over my eyes :-)

Regards,
Christine.