Discussion:
The Most Difficult Charts to Interpret
(too old to reply)
mamy
2009-05-12 18:18:18 UTC
Permalink
Sometimes when we interpret a chart we find that the natural
tendencies of the person is completely different from what life has
offered him and his chosen route, how should we handle this problem?
First of all we interpret the whole chart without emphasis on what we
believe to be important and see if the reaction is positive then bit
by bit we can arrive to a middle point where we can deliver our
knowledge while taking into consideration his point of view so we can
add to him more self awareness with a positive outlook.
Second case: a chart with several semi-sextiles e.g. mercury 4 libra;
pluto 5 scorpio; saturn 5 sagitarius; neptune 3 capricorn. The owner
of such aspects is usuallu a very adaptable person who knows how to
enter or get ou of any subject he chooses and when he comes to an
Astrologer he is coming to see if he can outwit him or her (not
openly).
Third case: The duality of the cadent signs, this is a very tricky
chart as it sometimes implicates its owner or his partner, it carries
within the double effect and as we interpret, in certain cases, for
the first house the interpretation can take effect for the seventh
house.
Here I ask of our outstanding Astrologers to add to us from their own
experience and point of view.
dionysus
2009-05-15 02:10:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by mamy
Sometimes when we interpret a chart we find that the natural
tendencies of the person is completely different from what life has
offered him and his chosen route, how should we handle this problem?
Problem ?,...
Post by mamy
First of all we interpret the whole chart without emphasis on what we
believe to be important and see if the reaction is positive then bit
by bit we can arrive to a middle point where we can deliver our
knowledge while taking into consideration his point of view so we can
add to him more self awareness with a positive outlook.
Try speaking more in archetypal analogical terms,. as if your client
were on the other side of a dry wall,.. If you make up the right
storylines based on the chart before you,. you will catch him/her in
his/her's net,..
Post by mamy
Second case: a chart with several semi-sextiles e.g. mercury 4 libra;
pluto 5 scorpio; saturn 5 sagitarius; neptune 3 capricorn. The owner
of such aspects is usuallu a very adaptable person who knows how to
enter or get ou of any subject he chooses and when he comes to an
Astrologer he is coming to see if he can outwit him or her (not
openly).
Again,. the better you speak in allegory,. the all the better to ensnare
his/her own storyline,.. Anyone seeking to confound,. such is their own
undoing, no responsibility of yours to unwind, spin them a story they
will remember years down the line,.. They will remember it it for it is
them,..
Post by mamy
Third case: The duality of the cadent signs, this is a very tricky
chart as it sometimes implicates its owner or his partner, it carries
within the double effect and as we interpret, in certain cases, for
the first house the interpretation can take effect for the seventh
house.
Fire needs Air to continue to burn either Earth or Water,..
All of these are vice versa relationships,.. Air seeks Fire to stimulate
its movement,.. Earth seeks Water to hold it and nourish it,.. Water
seeks Earth to fill it with mineral content and value,..

You are seeing the foxes for the carrion they are dismembering,..
Ie,. are you seeing the foxes? or the carrion they are gathering around?

Another meaning for 'the all seeing eye',.. all we are seeing are the
elemental inverses of everything around us,.. Hence the person with a
Saturn 12th,.. Missing father in youth, say,... lends toward seeking
touch and safe body language, 6th hse, late in life to compensate,..

So yes,. i agree, we see inverses in our clients,. but these are great
for they strike up a movement in the chart, showing us cause and effect,
and more direction toward what resolution we can offer,....
Post by mamy
Here I ask of our outstanding Astrologers to add to us from their own
experience and point of view.
don hindenach
2009-05-15 02:25:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by mamy
Sometimes when we interpret a chart we find that the natural
tendencies of the person is completely different from what life has
offered him and his chosen route, how should we handle this problem?
look at pluto, adjust from there
--
-donh-
donh at audiosys dot com
CFA
2009-05-15 03:12:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by mamy
Sometimes when we interpret a chart we find that the natural
tendencies of the person is completely different from what life has
offered him and his chosen route, how should we handle this problem?
I think that 'chosen route' bit is the clue. But the chart typically
doesn't show success or failure- it only shows challenge or ease.
Post by mamy
First of all we interpret the whole chart without emphasis on what we
believe to be important and see if the reaction is positive then bit
by bit we can arrive to a middle point where we can deliver our
knowledge while taking into consideration his point of view so we can
add to him more self awareness with a positive outlook.
I don't know how to characterize a whole chart for someone until I've
broken off smaller chunks and gotten feedback first. I focus on the
strongest aspect constellations first, since those tend to drive a
chart.
Post by mamy
Second case: a chart with several semi-sextiles e.g. mercury 4 libra;
pluto 5 scorpio; saturn 5 sagitarius; neptune 3 capricorn. The owner
of such aspects is usuallu a very adaptable person who knows how to
enter or get ou of any subject he chooses and when he comes to an
Astrologer he is coming to see if he can outwit him or her (not
openly).
That could also just be the Me/Ne square.
Post by mamy
Third case: The duality of the cadent signs, this is a very tricky
chart as it sometimes implicates its owner or his partner, it carries
within the double effect and as we interpret, in certain cases, for
the first house the interpretation can take effect for the seventh
house.
I see it as both-and rather than either-or. That's part of the special
gifts of the cadent signs (and air signs, too, actually)- the ability
to inhabit more than one universe comfortably :-)
Post by mamy
Here I ask of our outstanding Astrologers to add to us from their own
experience and point of view.
Ken
--
cfa at alt dot net
Jake
2009-05-15 21:34:43 UTC
Permalink
One thing I've found adds great insight into a chart is to do a simple
"map" of dispositors. This helps identify the overall dynamics of a
nativity. For example:

In my own chart, I have there are 2 key influences - Jupiter and
Mercury are in mutual reception (no native aspect) and Saturn trine
Neptune semi-square Mars Sextile Saturn. Looking at these two
influences has been instrumental in understanding major life events
for years.

I recently ran a chart in which all planets were ruled by Saturn based
on dispositors. When I applied the Saturnalian flavors to the chart,
everything fell cleanly into place. Naturally we understand that we
can only tell a client what influences are being brought to bear in
their lives, it is up to them to determine what to do with those
energies.

I do not recommend speaking in vaguaries and hoping you hit on
something with the querant - that sort of astrology is available from
many websites and even the local daily newspaper. That sort of
astrology gives a black eye to those that practice on a regular basis.
If we are uncomfortable with what we know, or read a chart
tentatively, we convey an uncertainty that lends itself to
incredibility. This hurts not only our clients, but the credibility of
any astrologer they may visit in the future. Remember, all ships rise
with the tides.
Post by mamy
Sometimes when we interpret a chart we find that the natural
tendencies of the person is completely different from what life has
offered him and his chosen route, how should we handle this problem?
First of all we interpret the whole chart without emphasis on what we
believe to be important and see if the reaction is positive then bit
by bit we can arrive to a middle point where we can deliver our
knowledge while taking into consideration his point of view so we can
add to him more self awareness with a positive outlook.
Second case: a chart with several semi-sextiles e.g. mercury 4 libra;
pluto 5 scorpio; saturn 5 sagitarius; neptune 3 capricorn. The owner
of such aspects is usuallu a very adaptable person who knows how to
enter or get ou of any subject he chooses and when he comes to an
Astrologer he is coming to see if he can outwit him or her (not
openly).
Third case: The duality of the cadent signs, this is a very tricky
chart as it sometimes implicates its owner or his partner, it carries
within the double effect and as we interpret, in certain cases, for
the first house the interpretation can take effect for the seventh
house.
Here I ask of our outstanding Astrologers to add to us from their own
experience and point of view.
dionysus
2009-05-16 13:07:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jake
One thing I've found adds great insight into a chart is to do a simple
"map" of dispositors. This helps identify the overall dynamics of a
In my own chart, I have there are 2 key influences - Jupiter and
Mercury are in mutual reception (no native aspect) and Saturn trine
Neptune semi-square Mars Sextile Saturn. Looking at these two
influences has been instrumental in understanding major life events
for years.
I recently ran a chart in which all planets were ruled by Saturn based
on dispositors. When I applied the Saturnalian flavors to the chart,
everything fell cleanly into place. Naturally we understand that we
can only tell a client what influences are being brought to bear in
their lives, it is up to them to determine what to do with those
energies.
I do not recommend speaking in vaguaries and hoping you hit on
something with the querant - that sort of astrology is available from
many websites and even the local daily newspaper.
In Fact,.. Vagaries aside, i used to agree with you, i also veheme web
astro etc's, i am not mentioning any near such vagary..

To the point, how, over the years one does notice the regular
storyline's for each of the zones of the zodiac, the dispositors and
Planetary Cycles themselves,.. I used to argue how actually relevant
this was, now i see it as undeniable,.. The existence of Myths and Folk
tales are infallible evidence of this,.. One big story puzzle this,..
Gods and their relevant shenanigans,.. We are the Olympian tour guides,..

Hence speaking in analogies regards these is a way to pass through all
regions of a symbol without hammering the nail on the head as such,..
Stories relevant to such experienced in the reality,..

What experience does one want to present ones client?,.
the nipple or the breast?,..

If you form the breast you leave the client to experience the nipple for
themselves,.. if you give them the nipple,.. how are they to experience
the gravity of the breast,.. ?

If you follow hypnosis techniques then too,. Understanding that to
mention things that the psyche's critical factor cannot deny,.. stating
obvious facts/nipples, is risky business,.. Considering we have at our
disposal a tool allowing us to chat about such archetypal symbols,
without loosing the attention of our client,. in fact raising the
energies more and more up and through them,.. they feel it,.. anticipate
it,.. You add in the characters etc,. the storylines, they know it,.
remember it,.. feel it, smell it,.. sitting there in front of you,. not
hypnotised, but there is no way they would want to disagree with your
words flowing,.. /You know i never realised i was hypnotising people
with my particular style of session until i heard back from a client
through an associate a few years back, lit referred to feeling
hypnotised, they were powerless to disagree, and all i was doing was
presenting horoscopic data by a certain technique,../

And im not talking of 'transference'etc here either,.. Of these realms
we spend all day in, acting as tour guides explaining the in's and
out's,.. literally like an astral guide,...


You recall the olde diagrams on the process one venture's into, client
and shaman,.. Where we climb into the bath together,.. Submerse into the
realm of unconscious symbols,..

I enjoy my business clients, don't get me wrong, they enjoy their
nipples whole heartedly,.. But really,.. who can resist a dip in the
pond,.. Then we dance and play out their images for them,.. We help them
bathe in the light of the antiquary starry tales,.. They see themselves
passing through generations and cann attach to past experiences along
similar lines in previous incarnations,...

Denying storytelling is a very short-sighted argument really,.. Surely
you agree there,..

Yes,. i mean, truth be told,. i feel nowadays like an investigator or
traveller to 4 distinctly different realms,.. Sinking into these on
chatting with clients,.. There are only really so many possible stories
in each realm, certain characters to be found there etc,.. and you chart
around to the various locations therein enquiring by the different
personalities,. seeinng if your clients signature fits theirs,.. As you
near, your client lighting up,..

You explain the turf, poke their boogyman,... they chuckle at all the
obvious pitfalls,.. You toe out into reality every now and again, just
to keep them awake,. they chuckle further at the divinity of this
comedy, unfolding years, they can now see they are truly involved in,.
always had a hunch, but now resonant, they are sure,..

I do suppose though too,. its all about the presentation of the client
in querying,. depends what they are up for,..

So dare i mercury retrograde here, but yeap,. Possibly to mind our black
eyed p's and credibility q's,..

*Great Chatting*
Regards,..


That sort of
Post by Jake
astrology gives a black eye to those that practice on a regular basis.
If we are uncomfortable with what we know, or read a chart
tentatively, we convey an uncertainty that lends itself to
incredibility. This hurts not only our clients, but the credibility of
any astrologer they may visit in the future. Remember, all ships rise
with the tides.
Post by mamy
Sometimes when we interpret a chart we find that the natural
tendencies of the person is completely different from what life has
offered him and his chosen route, how should we handle this problem?
First of all we interpret the whole chart without emphasis on what we
believe to be important and see if the reaction is positive then bit
by bit we can arrive to a middle point where we can deliver our
knowledge while taking into consideration his point of view so we can
add to him more self awareness with a positive outlook.
Second case: a chart with several semi-sextiles e.g. mercury 4 libra;
pluto 5 scorpio; saturn 5 sagitarius; neptune 3 capricorn. The owner
of such aspects is usuallu a very adaptable person who knows how to
enter or get ou of any subject he chooses and when he comes to an
Astrologer he is coming to see if he can outwit him or her (not
openly).
Third case: The duality of the cadent signs, this is a very tricky
chart as it sometimes implicates its owner or his partner, it carries
within the double effect and as we interpret, in certain cases, for
the first house the interpretation can take effect for the seventh
house.
Here I ask of our outstanding Astrologers to add to us from their own
experience and point of view.
astrochik
2009-06-08 19:34:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi folks,

First time posting. Interesting topic.

I've been working with clients since 1991 and am an astrologer first
and a gestalt therapist second. *grin*

My two cents, for your consideration.

The question I ask when we sit down is always the same, "What do you
hope to get out of our time together?" It is a starting place. What
happens between the two of us is driven by that first question and the
subsequent exploration of the answer to that question.

It is a person-to-person experience and we're peeling layers as
gently, as provocatively, as playfully as possible. Penetration of
the chart should feel like pleasure, not pain (for either of us!) and
I have become acutely aware that the astrological stuff gives
permission to talk about the deepest core of that person.

Why are they there?

That drives the process.

I had a difficult client grappling with her engagement. She told me,
flat out, that she was angry that he was not the exciting man she had
intense erotic play with anymore. That she was toying with simply
bedding her ex-love and (quote/unquote) she "...didn't give a good
goddamn what the consequences would be..."

Fair enough.

Fair enough is what I said to her and I told her that she scared me
half to death and I wondered if she'd scared her fiance, too? I asked
her if it was possible that she was more bold, more direct, more like
a "berserker" than the "beloved" to her fiance. She sat back in the
chair with the most bemused look on her face and said she'd never
thought of it that way before.

Late degree Taurus Sun separating from Saturn in Pisces (by minutes)
as well as Mars in Taurus. Venus in Aries making no aspects. Jupiter
ruled chart.

I like to experience my reaction to the person. Do I want to lean
in? Does she make me hold my breath? Where are the two of us? Is
there a connection?

It was a risk to say what I did to her. She DID scare me half to
death. All that anger. All that heat. All that "fark u" coming out
of one petite forty something with a history of sexually acting out.

It isn't just The Astrologer Analyzing the Chart. It's two people
sitting down and having an experience that could be powerful,
meaningful, and life changing. Or not.

Looking forward to your considered response.

Judith
astrochik
2009-06-09 17:41:27 UTC
Permalink
"Sometimes when we interpret a chart we find that the natural
tendencies of the person is completely different from what life has
offered him and his chosen route, how should we handle this problem?"

How do we know this? Is it because the client says so? Does the
client see it as a problem or do we?

Could you say a bit more?

Thanks!
Silveen
2009-06-16 16:57:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by astrochik
"Sometimes when we interpret a chart we find that the natural
tendencies of the person is completely different from what life has
offered him and his chosen route, how should we handle this problem?"
How do we know this? Is it because the client says so? Does the
client see it as a problem or do we?
Could you say a bit more?
Thanks!
Hello Judith:
.. could it be that the time of birth was given wrong and the good or
bad parts in the clients life, or the client´s character, or tendencies are
thus
shown in a different house ?? It does make a BIG difference.
You can find out, when you start checking for example: is his/her Moon
in the right house, then checking all other planets, especially if they are
near a cusp. Ask yourself, would it be more his/her character, if say Mars,
or Saturn (etc.) would be placed into the next or the previous house ??
BTW: some research has shown that most people are born, if only minutes,
but BEFORE the time of birth given/remembered. - Something to start with. -

I have done type of correcting the t.o.b. for years now (started with my
own chart years ago),
later for friends and clients who "thought" they were born at a certain
time,
but then very often I was told that they had "assumed", as their mother had
told them (and she HAD to be right - after all, she was there ! :), but
the -
finally found - original birth certificate showed that the other time, which
I had
told them to be more likely, was correct. -

Try it, you´ll like it.

So much on this.
Take care and
be well,
I.R.Heller

dionysus
2009-06-09 19:38:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by astrochik
Hi folks,
First time posting. Interesting topic.
I've been working with clients since 1991 and am an astrologer first
and a gestalt therapist second. *grin*
My two cents, for your consideration.
The question I ask when we sit down is always the same, "What do you
hope to get out of our time together?" It is a starting place.
What happens between the two of us is driven by that first question and the
subsequent exploration of the answer to that question.
gather up the story lines from the chart,.. Obviously with a bit of
practice you can tell the story to very accurately parallel their actual
life circumstances,. Enough to start drawing subconscious forces out the
client,.. You are effectively inducing them, at first i never realised
this myself,..

I don't like to get involved as such,. So i don't touch nor empathise
any longer, hard not to actually engage, but very necessary i assume,..
Post by astrochik
It is a person-to-person experience and we're peeling layers as
gently, as provocatively, as playfully as possible.
at first i thought my answere was not in accord with this/yours,. but
yes i see why you say it the way you do,. for you do provcatively bring
out the forces,. playfully creating the settings for them to co habit,..

Penetration of
Post by astrochik
the chart should feel like pleasure, not pain (for either of us!)
regardless,. one has a session duration and certain goals need to be meet,..
entertaining complexes is a complex endeavour,.. i try to be non
supportive really,.. i mean, for what can you truly support,.. there is
always a story,. i live in south afrca, we still have rather
impoverished native folk in surrounding valley areas,.. i have consulted
in various rural 'help scheme' ventures and the same accountant taking
handouts is always there,. the staff who think the donated food for the
mothers and children is more rightly for them and their cronies,..
SO i would love to tell the old lady who runs the venture a good story,
but the story is always the same,.. sad, but i think the world is the
pain and well you just have to tell the soldier as if he awaken for a
moment only,. you tell him the song,. and back he goes in to the
shock,.. hopefully your chord will have hit the inner keys and the form
will start to crack,.. allowing him to see himself and walk from his
self made cage,..
and
Post by astrochik
I have become acutely aware that the astrological stuff gives
permission to talk about the deepest core of that person.
yes, this is where we hook further into ericksonian hypnosis concepts,..
you can talk deep inside and rouse up their forces for you are telling
no lies to that person as far as their critical factors are concerned,..
search "trance abuse",. Astrology is one hell of a tool if you know your
stuff,..
Symbolic language is very different to regular talk,..
when you speak continually ,. well as much as possible in analogy,..
the shadow of the lightening struck tower becomes that much more
resonant,..
The more paragraphic scenes you can impress the client with,.. rouse
that universal revoirie in them,..

whether he be the devil or the saint,.. you are to scare him with your
ambivalent tranceing through his apparently visible personality,.. i
feel that helps to jar the cleint from being so in love with the image
of themself,..

but basically yea,. appreciate where you actually are at that point of
the session and what is available in your toolbox,..
Post by astrochik
Why are they there?
That drives the process.
I had a difficult client grappling with her engagement. She told me,
flat out, that she was angry that he was not the exciting man she had
intense erotic play with anymore. That she was toying with simply
bedding her ex-love and (quote/unquote) she "...didn't give a good
goddamn what the consequences would be..."
i mean at this point,. who is she other than a collective of ideas,.
expressing their aggression,. you are pulling up forces from people,..
subconscious archetypal forces as if pressing up against celephane,..
you can see by her chart what force patterns she would respond to,..
pluck at the strings of the instrument,... but don't buy into it,.
resolve it,.. find its ques and their order,..

NOt a chance,. half the clients are on pharmaceutical chemical
enhancers,.. NOt a chance am i going to engage with subconscious forces
and take them seriously,. i call them up through the porthole of the
person and play for them of some working scenarios,..

if we get the intricacies of their picture right,. we can find a decent
key,.. If we find a decent key,. 'at that stage' of the session,... then
that is actually hy[pnticvally emplanted and the castle should start to
crack in the next few months,..,. i try to get folks to see themselves
in the silhouette of gods so they can't carry on playing the soap opera
out,.. they have caught themselves in the act, in the shadow cast by
their ghosts even,.. i mean,. no one wants to do it to themselves,..
living in a closet of ghosts, getting rattled by pots and pans all
day,.. playing out classic signal reception patterns,.. every time,.. i
mean,. you can show a person how essentially backward they are for
supporting their own demise 100% of the way,..
Post by astrochik
Fair enough.
Fair enough is what I said to her and I told her that she scared me
half to death and I wondered if she'd scared her fiance, too? I asked
her if it was possible that she was more bold, more direct, more like
a "berserker" than the "beloved" to her fiance. She sat back in the
chair with the most bemused look on her face and said she'd never
thought of it that way before.
yes,. if you can play the energy to bring about stories of the beserker
etc where she will start to see her silhouette, then make the connection
herself and gulp,. chipper down without you having to give her the
credit of "you scared me",.. ..issue in your chart marrying there?
Post by astrochik
Late degree Taurus Sun separating from Saturn in Pisces (by minutes)
as well as Mars in Taurus. Venus in Aries making no aspects. Jupiter
ruled chart.
I like to experience my reaction to the person. Do I want to lean
in? Does she make me hold my breath? Where are the two of us? Is
there a connection?
It was a risk to say what I did to her. She DID scare me half to
death. All that anger. All that heat. All that "fark u" coming out
of one petite forty something with a history of sexually acting out.
ha ha ha ,. too funny,.. a fresh Springy Venus,..
Post by astrochik
It isn't just The Astrologer Analyzing the Chart.
i think essentially it is,. as hypnotist/ consultant,.. You have the
symbolic signature of the candidate,. you can press the keys and you
should be in,. if you press them correctly it works,. if you don't it
doesn't
It's two people
Post by astrochik
sitting down and having an experience that could be powerful,
i think we are talking of the same thing,. just hooking into different
aspects of it,.. if you're thinking what im thinking ,then bang on,...
im really into the mechanics of all this, having seen these keys as such
is like having a tool kit to the human being,.. fabulous work!
Post by astrochik
meaningful, and life changing. Or not.
Looking forward to your considered response.
Judith
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