Post by Andrew KernHi all,
It is based on my curiosity to ask this question: What advice would
you normally give to a couple when this aspect is found in their
interplanetery comparison? (... apart from breaking-up ;) )
A generalized meaning of Mars square Saturn would be "frustration."
Mars is associated with activity, wanting to do things, taking decisive
action, wanting to put your foot on the gas pedal and "zoom zoom zoom"
(to quote a series of popular car commercials here in America), getting
all fired up about things, being passionate and impassioned, enjoying
sports and being playful or "frisky"-- and (if expressed negatively)
getting angry, being belligerent and antagonistic, wanting to settle
things with physical violence, being quick to take offense and flare
up, getting into altercations, etc.
Saturn is associated with ambition, working diligently, being serious,
having a realistic outlook, being "mature" and "adult," taking care of
responsibilities, keeping things orderly or "structured," protecting
and maintaining boundaries, setting limits to keep things from getting
"out of hand," being good at "time management," having a good sense of
timing or doing things "on schedule"-- and (if expressed negatively)
being pessimistic, getting depressed, having a gloomy or bleak outlook,
being misanthropic, avoiding or failing to meet one's responsibilities,
placing blame or not wanting to accept responsibility for things, being
burdened with unwelcomed or extremely difficult (and perhaps even
impossible) responsibilities, being limited, restrictions, setbacks,
obstacles, etc.
And of course, the square is associated with conflict, disagreement,
things that are at "cross purposes" to each other, energies that don't
mix well or which struggle against each other-- and (if expressed
positively) overcoming problems and obstacles, etc.
One way the square might manifest is that one person may want to do
things and "go," but the other person keeps holding things back or
wanting to "stop." The Saturn individual may want the Mars individual
to be more responsible, which may aggravate and frustrate the Mars
individual. Or the Mars individual may want the Saturn individual to be
more active and daring, but the Saturn individual keeps throwing a "wet
blanket" on things and smothering the Mars individual's enthusiasm.
However, Mars square Saturn can be also be expressed in positive ways.
For example, I have seen this (natal) aspect in the charts of very
successful professional athletes, because it can suggest controlled
power, and an ambitious desire to struggle against obstacles and win.
Saturn rules Capricorn, which when symbolized by the mountain goat
suggests a desire to "climb to the top"; and Mars rules Aries, which
likes to be "number one" or in the lead. Therefore, Mars and Saturn
together can give a strong desire to be a winner; and if this desire is
applied to overcoming obstacles (which are represented by the square),
then the native can become very successful through hard work and "never
giving up the fight." Also, Mars square Saturn might be likened to an
internal combustion engine, which is made out of heavy metal which
encapsulates and restricts a fire, but which allows that fire to be put
to constructive use as a driving force.
You have Saturn in your 12th House, which suggests that you may have
"Saturn issues" lingering from your past-- which could mean from past
lives (if you believe in reincarnation) or from your childhood in this
lifetime. The 12th House can be associated with the things we do which
work against us, or where we can be our own "worst enemies." It is very
close to the 1st House, which represents the self, and traditional
astrological ideas suggest that two signs which are adjacent to each
other are "blind" to each other, or can't "see" each other-- they were
said (except in special cases) to be "inconjunct," or not connected
with each other, lacking any aspect between them (except in special
cases). "Aspect" means "look at," so this infers that the two adjacent
signs cannot "look at" each other because they are side-by-side and
facing in roughly the same direction, hence they are not able to "see"
each other. It is as if the two signs are at each other's "blind spots"
and unable to even glimpse each other in their fields of peripheral
vision. This idea can be applied to the 1st House and the 12th House,
which are adjacent, because the 1st House is the self, and the 12th
House can be associated with things that are hidden behind the scenes,
or secret enemies who stab us in the back, as well as behaviors which
work against our best interests, therefore we could say that the 12th
House is at the "blind spot" of the 1st House. Thus, Saturn in the 12th
House might suggest that you are not able to see the ways in which you
limit yourself, or how any "Saturn issues" can work against you.
On the other hand, the 12th House is above the horizon, suggesting that
it is "out there in the open" where everyone can see it-- that is,
everyone but the native-- so it might be possible that your girlfriend
can see your "Saturn issues" very clearly, and keeps trying to tell you
about them, but you aren't always able to see what she's talking about.
Her Saturn is in your 1st House, which may suggest that she brings her
Saturn to you, so to speak. If we think of a partner as someone who
"completes" us, or "fills in the missing pieces," then we could say
that a synastry chart between two people is like a "mega-chart," in the
sense that her Saturn in your 1st House might become "your" Saturn in
your 1st House, as if she were lending it to you. This could mean that
she helps you to manifest Saturn's energies in a more self-conscious
way, or helps you to "see" and "own" Saturn more consciously and more
directly. Alternately, if you do not respond very well to her Saturn in
your 1st House, it might instead mean that she tries to help you "see"
and "face up" to your "Saturn issues," but you tend to feel that she is
being too serious, too controlling, too restrictive, or too burdensome
toward you. Her Saturn doesn't make any major stressful aspects to your
chart, and in fact it makes a very close biquintile to your Sun-Chiron
conjunction, and a sextile to your Jupiter, so I would tend to think
that you generally respond well to her Saturn, and that it is helpful
to you to have her Saturn in your 1st House.
You have Mars in your 7th House, conjunct Mercury and Venus-- widely
conjunct Venus, but Mercury is conjunct both Venus and Mars, and is at
their midpoint, so that serves to draw Venus and Mars into conjunction
with each other. They are all in Aries, which is ruled by Mars, but
which is one of Venus's detriments, so Mars has sway over Venus in the
conjunction-- and Mars is also the most elevated planet in the multiple
conjunction. Since the 7th House is the house of other people and our
partners (as well as our "open enemies" or opponents), the planets in
the 7th House can either describe what our partners are like, or else
the qualities and behaviors which characterize our relationships with
other people. Thus, Mars conjunct Mercury in your 7th House could
suggest that your partner is a shrewd or "sharp" thinker, but she may
be a "hothead" and inclined to get into arguments or debates, or she
may have a "sharp tongue" and cut people with her words. On the other
hand, these may be traits which you display toward other people in your
relationships, or behaviors which you tend to evoke in other people, or
which attract you to other people. Your Mars and Mercury are opposing
your Pluto in your 1st House, so you may get pretty "feisty" when you
feel that other people are threatening your self-control or personal
power over your own life. On the other hand, other people may become
"feisty" or argumentative with you if they feel like you are being too
domineering or obsessive. By the way, her Lunar nodes make a Mystic
Rectangle with your Mars-Pluto opposition, which is intriguing.
Her Mars is in your 3rd House, which sort of resonates with the fact
that you have Mercury conjunct Mars (since Mercury is often said to be
the "natural ruler" of the 3rd House, at least by some astrologers). It
is closer to a sesquisquare than anything else as far as its aspect to
your Mars, but it is trine your Venus and Mercury, so those trines may
serve to nullify or minimize any potential "sesquisquarishness" between
your two Marses (since Venus, Nercury, and Mars form a triplet in your
chart). In any case, her Mars in your 3rd House might suggest either
that she behaves in a "Mars-in-the-3rd-House manner" toward you, or
that you tend to experience her Mars in a "3rd-House manner," or that
she "lends you" her Mars so you can apply it toward your 3rd House, and
so on. This could be "good" or "bad," depending on how it is handled or
expressed, and how you perceive it. For example, Mercury conjunct Mars
in your chart suggests that you have a "sharp" mind, incisive thinking,
and penetrating insights, but the fact that they are in your 7th House
may suggest that you do not "own" them very well, as if you are "giving
them" to other people, or projecting them onto other people. So her
Mars in your 3rd House may suggest that she helps you to bring the
energy of Mars back inside yourself, think about it, analyze it, and
talk about it. She may "fire" your mind, inciting you to think in more
incisive and decisive ways. But if expressed negatively, it may also
suggest that she aggravates your thinking, riles you up mentally, and
that you perceive her as speaking harshly toward you.
The "problem" aspect which you are asking about is the square between
her Mars in your 3rd House, and your Saturn in your 12th House. From
her perspective (or in her chart), it is her Mars in her 6th House, and
your Saturn in her 3rd House. These positions suggest that you may have
"Saturn issues" from your past (as I mentioned before), such as perhaps
having unresolved difficulties with older people (your parents?) dating
back to early childhood, or difficulties related to responsibilities
because of incidents or situations in your early life, or an inability
to see how your Saturnian qualities may be working against you. As for
her Mars in her 6th House, she may be a hard or energetic worker, full
of "hustle and bustle," but she may be inclined to health problems
related to anger, stress, fevers, cuts, and other "Mars issues." Or,
she may tend to get into conflicts with her coworkers or supervisors,
possibly because she has a "take charge" attitude, and they may feel as
if their job security is being threatened by her, or that she is trying
to defy their authority or boss them around. In any case, it is her
Mars and your Saturn which are in conflict, so she may perhaps get
cross with you for being too cautious or reluctant when she wants to
just take off and do things.
As for what to do about any of this-- and I don't know how well any of
what I said actually fits the two of you-- the main thing is to stick
with it, and resolve to work through any difficulties or frustrations.
You can also focus on channeling your Saturn energies, and her Mars
energies, along more productive lines. For example, you have Saturn
closely quintile Uranus, which is part of a 10th-Harmonic configuration
(as I had mentioned to you some years ago), and her Mercury is very
closely conjunct your Uranus and quintile your Saturn. Thus, when her
Mars square your Saturn becomes difficult or frustrating, you could try
to redirect your Saturn energies into the quintile with her Mercury.
Unfortunately, the closest aspect between her Mars and your chart is
the square to your Saturn, so there are no closer aspects for her to
redirect her Mars energies into-- although the trine between her Mars
and your Venus is a close second (in terms of orbs) to the square, so
you could try to direct your Venus energies toward distracting her Mars
away from your Saturn!
Post by Andrew KernThe main reason for me to bring this up is because there exists
such an aspect between my/my girlfriend's chart. Although we are
getting on quite well, I do feel the effect from this aspect from
time to time and it can be quite frustrating to deal with.
Yes, frustration is common with Mars square Saturn.
Post by Andrew KernApr 30 1979 3:06pm ST -8:00 121:30E 25:02N (mine)
Oct 20 1980 9:36pm ST -7:30 103:50E 01:18N
Yes, I posted these charts once before, and thank you Michael for
your insightful reply last time. It was most helpful and inspiring.
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/thread/ed832c22f58864d9/658e1cf908c3b9a7
Thanks in advance.
Andrew
Thank you for providing that link, as it was interesting for me to go
back and read what I had written. Sometimes when I read my old posts, I
can't remember having written them, and it's like finding an old gem
that I had forgotten about-- or (in some cases) an embarrassing piece
of garbage that I wish I had never produced, and which I'd like to bury
forever and hide from the world! :-) Anyway, I remember telling you
about your 10th-Harmonic configuration, and about how the positions and
aspects in a composite chart are created by the synastry between two
natal charts (e.g., if the Sun is in the 1st House of one chart, and in
the 3rd House of the other chart, then it will most likely be in the
2nd House of the composite chart).
But I don't see where I ever responded to you after you replied to me
about your 10th-Harmonic configuration, and I apologize for that. You
mentioned then that you had noted the significance of the empty focal
point, or sensitive trigger point, at 1 Aquarius, which (when occupied
by a transiting planet, or by someone else's natal planet) turns your
four planets that quintile each other into a Grand Quintile. Note that
this point is also closely opposing your Jupiter, which is at a focal
midpoint of that 5th-Harmonic configuration, thereby turning it into a
10th-Harmonic configuration. Thus, any transits over your 1 Aquarius
sensitive point should also be viewed as oppositions to your Jupiter.
By the way, those old posts reminded me to look for the name of the
quadrilateral which has two parallel but unequal sides, and two equal
but non-parallel sides. (I'm not quoting the figure below from another
post, but am simply beginning each line with ">" to keep Google from
eating the leading spaces and destroying the alignment.)
Post by Andrew KernA B
+------------+
\ /
\ /
+------+
C D
I had found the name once, a few years back, and had mentioned it in
this newsgroup-- but then I couldn't remember it. I just searched on
the internet, and found it-- "trapezoid"! More specifically, it is an
"isosceles trapezoid," which happens to be the only kind of trapezoid
that can be inscribed in a circle, so we could refer to this aspect
pattern as simply a trapezoid. A trapezoid is formed when two pairs of
planets have a common midpoint axis (i.e., A/B=C/D), making planetary
pictures, as the planets of one pair form the same angles to the
planets of the other pair (i.e., A-C=D-B, and A-D=C-B). A trapezoid can
be made up of any angles that fit these criteria, so there is no one
single "Trapezoid" aspect configuration per se. But we can call yours a
"Golden Trapezoid," since it is made up of 5th-Harmonic aspects and
contains two "Golden Yods."
Post by Andrew KernThat is the other thing puzzling me. For composite conjunctions and
oppositions, shouldn't they be having the same interpretation
because of this fact?
I do not actually use composite charts on a regular basis-- not that I
don't believe in them, but rather because I don't really look at a lot
of charts (since I'm not a professional astrologer), and I tend to look
at relationship charts much less frequently than natal charts, transits
to natal charts, event charts, etc. However, it is my understanding--
from the few books I have which deal with composite charts-- that
conjunctions and oppositions are read differently in composite charts,
just as they are in other charts. The only exception (as mentioned by
Robert Hand in his book, "Planets in Composite") might be if the natal
planets of the two people form an angle between 150 and 180, or maybe
between 165 and 180, or between 170 and 180, such that there isn't a
lot of difference between the shorter arc and longer arc between them,
in which case it might be difficult to say if their near midpoint or
their far midpoint should be used for the composite position.
However, astrology software programs always take the near midpoint,
even if the shorter arc is 179:59:59 and the longer arc is 180:00:01,
and that is also the general rule when calculating composites by hand.
So Robert Hand's speculative comment about flip-flopping the midpoints
is probably largely ignored in actual practice, except in cases where
the composite chart is being viewed alongside the synastry of the two
natal charts, since looking at the composite chart by itself doesn't
tell us if the angle between the natal planets is 10, 100, 179, etc.
The case where two planets are exactly 180 apart will probably never be
encountered, at least when using a computer program, since the computer
stores the planets' positions to many decimal places, and what may look
like an angle of 180:00:00 on the screen may in fact be calculated as
179:59:59.999999999999. Thus, the computer will never be in doubt as to
which midpoint to use for the composite position, unless the program
has been written to check for the aforementioned cases, and display the
composite chart accordingly-- perhaps displaying both midpoints on the
composite chart, but displaying the farther midpoint with a smaller
planetary glyph and font. However, I do not know of any programs which
currently do anything like that.
Post by Andrew KernAnd are signs important in composite charts?
As for the importance of the signs in composite charts, keep in mind
that house positions are generally deemed to be more important than
sign positions in natal charts, and if that is true for natal charts,
it should also be true for composite charts. However, that doesn't mean
that composite sign positions are meaningless, and I believe that sign
positions are interpreted in the major books about composite charts.
Nevertheless, I don't advise looking at a composite chart without also
looking at the synastry charts, because we should always remember that
a composite position is a midpoint. So if we see, for example, that the
composite Sun is in Leo, I don't think we should try to interpret that
sign position without also taking the sign positions of the natal Suns
into account. After all, it would make a difference whether the natal
Suns were also both in Leo, or in Cancer and Virgo, or in Gemini and
Libra, and so on. And I think the same is true for the composite house
positions-- we shouldn't try to interpret them in a vacuum, but should
take the natal house positions into account.
Michael Rideout