Astrology which and what?

[MH]

Researches and Astrological studies, has introduced many subjects to
support Astrology, like fixed stars, asteroids, and more asteroids,
elevated and pitted degrees, the sabian symbols, the arabic parts and
other....
The question is are we to use all these or which is for what?

[Kjell Pettersson]

Post by MH
The question is are we to use all these or which is for what?

It is my understanding that the Central Astrological Authority shall
have a conference about these matters in 2015. CAA will then decide
who may use which technique, and for what purpose. It seems likely
that midpoints will go to Europe and fixed stars to Canada and/or
Australia. Arabic parts or, as they are also called, the Greek lots
will probably be placed in Turkey.

China claims exclusive use of so called Chinese Astrology, but what to
do with astrological doctrines originating in Tibet will be difficult
to resolve to all parties' satisfaction. Perhaps a compromise is the
only realistic thing to expect — but will China accept any
compromises?

The asteroids, at least, wont be too difficult to solve. Each country
will get their own, and the rest will be put in a common pool, for all
to use.

Oh yes, regarding different kinds of degrees it has been proposed that
astrologers adopt a circle with 1000 degrees. In that way, everyone
will have more than a double set of degrees, something which has long
been asked for in certain quarters.

/Kjell, spokesperson for the local chapter of CAA

[Silveen]

Hi there Kjel:

so you are joking, even though this is NOT the alt.jokes ng - -
This would be much like "in this country you are only allowed to
use this or that medicine to attempt to cure whatever ails you" ;-)

Have a nice day anyway and
be well,
IRH/Silveen

Post by Kjell Pettersson

Post by MH
The question is are we to use all these or which is for what?

It is my understanding that the Central Astrological Authority shall
have a conference about these matters in 2015. CAA will then decide
who may use which technique, and for what purpose. It seems likely
that midpoints will go to Europe and fixed stars to Canada and/or
Australia. Arabic parts or, as they are also called, the Greek lots
will probably be placed in Turkey.
China claims exclusive use of so called Chinese Astrology, but what to
do with astrological doctrines originating in Tibet will be difficult
to resolve to all parties' satisfaction. Perhaps a compromise is the
only realistic thing to expect ￜ but will China accept any
compromises?
The asteroids, at least, wont be too difficult to solve. Each country
will get their own, and the rest will be put in a common pool, for all
to use.
Oh yes, regarding different kinds of degrees it has been proposed that
astrologers adopt a circle with 1000 degrees. In that way, everyone
will have more than a double set of degrees, something which has long
been asked for in certain quarters.
/Kjell, spokesperson for the local chapter of CAA

[Kjell Pettersson]

Post by Silveen
so you are joking, even though this is NOT the alt.jokes ng - -
This would be much like "in this country you are only allowed to
use this or that medicine to attempt to cure whatever ails you" ;-)

I would say you nailed the answer hidden in the joke pretty well. :-)

Since astrology was cast out of academia a few hundred years ago, we
have had no real chance on the standardization and "scientification"
that other sciences have received. That is both a blessing and not.

On one hand, we are outcasts. On the other, we have a freedom of
creation and exploration that none can rival. With that comes
mistakes, but also great possibilities.

Some may long for some kind of invisible hand to steer things up,
cause it certainly gets chaotic at times, but we must face it; there
exists no such hand. Well, we can hope that the so called market
mechanisms steps in and weeds out what does not work and vice versa,
but that would be the only visible hand available.

I think that even if astrology would miraculously be let back into the
academic halls, the situation would persist. It has become such an
ingrained part of the culture (of practising astrologers) now.

And I do think we are better off, because of this. Because I think it
reflects the true nature of astrology, namely, that there are several
kinds of astrology and not one.

[MH]

Post by Kjell Pettersson
On one hand, we are outcasts. On the other, we have a freedom of
creation and exploration that none can rival. With that comes
mistakes, but also great possibilities.
Some may long for some kind of invisible hand to steer things up,
cause it certainly gets chaotic at times, but we must face it; there
exists no such hand. Well, we can hope that the so called market
mechanisms steps in and weeds out what does not work and vice versa,
but that would be the only visible hand available.
And I do think we are better off, because of this. Because I think it
reflects the true nature of astrology, namely, that there are several
kinds of astrology and not one.

The seriousness and prolonged efforts of researching and studying,
makes the ( we are outcasts) issue unacceptable and unjust, unless we
accept it, and not try to change it.
As for the invisible hand that steer things up, we can change it, to
become the visible hand of the Astrologers, when they unite their
efforts, to make their studies less chaotic, and more practical and
realistic. Sure there are different kinds of Astrology and
Astrologers, as well as different kinds of logic and mental abilities,
but if we work with statistics, and many participate and share their
successful ways, like A.B. who seems very interested in the well fare
of Astrology, has just shared his own experience and personal point of
view in the matter, then we can
tighten the circle, control chaos and choose which is for what.

I hope that this subject would interest the participants and the
followers of this group, and they would take a part in it. Thank
you.

[Kjell Pettersson]

Post by MH
The seriousness and prolonged efforts of researching and studying,
makes the ( we are outcasts) issue unacceptable and unjust, unless we
accept it, and not try to change it.

Unacceptable according to whom? Why? And who do you mean by ”we”? Are
you referring to us here in the newsgroup or some unspecified mass of
astrologers in general?

Post by MH
As for the invisible hand that steer things up, we can change it, to
become the visible hand of the Astrologers, when they unite their
efforts, to make their studies less chaotic, and more practical and
realistic.

So ”we” must be some kind of elite that can steer the others? Have you
yourself united your efforts and made your studies less chaotic and
more practical and realistic? If so, pray tell us that are not in this
elite of yours about your illustrious example, that we may learn from
you. Leading by example is a time-honoured technique, and it is a
really good one.

Post by MH
Sure there are different kinds of Astrology and
Astrologers, as well as different kinds of logic and mental abilities,
but if we work with statistics, and many participate and share their
successful ways,

For many practising astrologers, astrology is partly (or wholly) a
mantic art. I cannot really see that those using astrology in this way
would be much helped by statistics. Nor do I see the scientific
community accepting any thing like the Sabian symbols, with their
origin, no matter how much you sugarcoat them with statistics.

Post by MH
like A.B. who seems very interested in the well fare
of Astrology, has just shared his own experience and personal point of
view in the matter,

My joke obviously did not appeal to your taste. But, seriously, do you
expect the visible hand of astrologers to rise up from a thread you
start in a newsgroup?

I must say I do think you underestimate the work that would have to be
done to even walk an inch in that direction. One also wonders why the
existing organizations that already work in a variety of ways with
astrology, to achieve what you speak of, are not mentioned by you. Why
not work through already existing channels, with people who are
already doing work along the lines you want to see? I think that would
be more profitable than seeking to create some kind of mass movement
in our little newsgroup.

Post by MH
then we can
tighten the circle, control chaos and choose which is for what.

Tighten which circle? My joke about 1000 degrees must have been very
wrong, you want only 100 degrees? Or what does ”tighten the circle”
actually mean? You think there are too many tools in astrology, and
you do not want to learn them all? Trust me, you do not have to.

And you speak of chaos again. Not a long time ago you felt things were
too ”rigid” around here, now you see chaos everywhere...? And do you
really think it is even a possible goal to decide what asteroids, or
the Sabians symbols, are supposed to be used for and not? How do you
picture to have such a standardization enforced? AstroPol shall hunt
down those who violate the results of the statistics you see as the
holy Grail?

Post by MH
I hope that this subject would interest the participants and the
followers of this group, and they would take a part in it.

If you could make concrete statements about how you see this program
come into being, what it should include, etc, then I think there
exists something to discuss. But as for now, I am not even convinced
that the chaos you see exists anywhere outside of your own
perception.

I would say that it is not even clear from your first post what kind
of response you seek. That A.B. fit better with your expectations is
not obvious, not even from what you have said in this post. His post
contains no statistics, yet you like it. What exactly is it that you
want to achieve? And if you can tell us, or at least me, clearly what
kind of replies would help you achieve that, I can consider helping
you. But as long as you do not make sense, there is not much I can do.

Post by MH
Thank
you.

You're welcome.

[MH]

First of all, is this alt. astrology moderated group, or practice your
verbal skills group? Are we here to discuss Astrological subjects big
or small, or are we here to debate and bring open and shut cases,
positive and negative, with already reached assumptions and
conclusions, but revolving around a person not a subject. If so, then
the name of the group should change, and take a more true and factual
one. Secondly, a group is supposed to share opinions, and discuss
their main subject of interest, and share their ways of thinking to
advance that subject, and if there is a practical way to be taken,
while one could be not aware of, they help and lead him to it. Have we
become so involved with words, that we forgot the meaning, and the
effort, to get to better results? Have we become so impressed with
assertive and agressive ways of expression, that we forget the
function and the help?. M.H.

[Kjell Pettersson]

Post by MH
First of all, is this alt. astrology moderated group, or practice your
verbal skills group?

This is alt.astrology.moderated, sometimes called aamod.

Post by MH
Are we here to discuss Astrological subjects big
or small, or are we here to debate and bring open and shut cases,
positive and negative,

One does not preclude the other.

Post by MH
with already reached assumptions and
conclusions, but revolving around a person not a subject.

My post contained questions, rather than assumptions. As usual, when
you do not want to answer questions, you go rhetorical in big style
and launch a host of rhetorical counter-questions. However, I am not a
mindreader. If you do not explain what you have written when it does
not make sense to me, I will not understand you. If you take asking
for clarification as an attack, that is up to you.

You COULD, however, choose to clarify.

Post by MH
If so, then
the name of the group should change, and take a more true and factual
one.

What is this if not an assumption and a conclusion about what I wrote?
Please get back on topic.

Post by MH
Secondly, a group is supposed to share opinions, and discuss
their main subject of interest, and share their ways of thinking to
advance that subject, and if there is a practical way to be taken,
while one could be not aware of, they help and lead him to it.

If I do not understand what you say or what kind of help you want,
what but asking you to clarify yourself could I reasonably do? Again,
I am not a mindreader. Now, would you please get back on topic?

Post by MH
Have we
become so involved with words, that we forgot the meaning, and the
effort, to get to better results? Have we become so impressed with
assertive and agressive ways of expression, that we forget the
function and the help?. M.H.

After having freed yourself of the burden of these rhetorical
questions, could you now be persuaded to return back to the topic of
the discussion that you yourself started? I would much appreciate if
you could consider answering the questions of my last post, as it is
in no way obvious to me neither what your goals are nor how you want
others to assist you.

[A B]

Just my two penn'orth:
Kjell: "I think it reflects the true nature of astrology, namely, that there
are several kinds of astrology and not one."

In theory, that doesn't really make sense. To take one example, it can't be
true both that someone talks impulsively and aggressively because they have
Mercury in tropical Aries, and that they do nothing of the sort because they
have Mercury in sidereal Pisces and not Aries. But in practice, there must
be thousands of astrologers in India using the sidereal system, and they
don't seem to be going out of business, and neither are the tropical
astrologers. I don't see how to resolve this one, unless you take the view
that neither system works, which doesn't square with my experience.

MH: "As for the invisible hand that steer things up, we can change it, to
become the visible hand of the Astrologers, when they unite their efforts,
to make their studies less chaotic, and more practical and realistic."

I think that's fair enough, in principle - "we" being, not a mythical
"elite", but all astrologers who are interested in testing which methods are
the most useful. Only, isn't that what astrologers have been doing for
centuries? Comparing notes, reading each others' writings, putting evidence
for their favourite theories - and agreeing to differ. Still, the same
could be said of any number of things in the sciences, where the scientists
got there in the end.

Of course, as Kjell says, this is only a little group - we ain't ISAR. But
that's no reason why we shouldn't compare notes a bit. Every little helps.
And this kind of group has its own advantages. I've got plenty of material
that I'd never dream of sending to ISAR or the Astrological Association
Journal. My observations are just too small for that level. And I'm not in
a position to join any local astrology groups. But it's still good stuff
that it would be a pity to waste. (The best are a dozen or so event charts
that I did a while ago. My idea was to work out what meanings for each
factor would make sense in all or most of the charts, and write it up for
the group. I'll do that as soon as I get the chance.)

Kjell: "For many practising astrologers, astrology is partly (or wholly) a
mantic art. I cannot really see that those using astrology in this way would
be much helped by statistics. Nor do I see the scientific community
accepting any thing like the Sabian symbols, with their origin, no matter
how much you sugarcoat them with statistics."

The mantic astrologers needn't read the statistics. Meanwhile, those of us
who expect to find some objective meaning in the chart are usually
interested in finding out the best ways of getting at it.
If the "scientific" community are prepared to reject something that's
supported by experiment, just because the original idea was suggested by a
psychic, shame on them. (I'm not saying that experiments WOULD support the
Sabian symbols - only that, IF they did, that would demand as much respect
as any other experimental evidence).

I'm as surprised as Kjell that it should be MH who wants to discuss
statistics, but let's keep to the point.

Kjell: "And do you really think it is even a possible goal to decide what
asteroids, or the Sabians symbols, are supposed to be used for and not? How
do you picture to have such a standardization enforced?"

Presumably in the same way that, say, gardening techniques are "enforced" -
if people know that the evidence points to late autumn being the best time
to plant trees, not many people are likely to plant them in March just from
contrariness. Seems plain enough to me.

Yours meaning well,

[Kjell Pettersson]

Post by A B
Kjell: "I think it reflects the true nature of astrology, namely, that there
are several kinds of astrology and not one."
In theory, that doesn't really make sense.

It does, and I am certainly not the first one to propose the idea.
Already Ptolemy knew that the signs of tropical astrology did not
correlate with the signs as you see them on a celestial map. Ibn Arabi
also spoke of tropical astrology and seeing these twelve signs as
”invisible”, as they were not what you could see in the sky.

Post by A B
To take one example, it can't be
true both that someone talks impulsively and aggressively because they have
Mercury in tropical Aries, and that they do nothing of the sort because they
have Mercury in sidereal Pisces and not Aries.

You seem to be deluded by the Aristotelian idea of ”Tertium non
datur”. Along with a great part of the Western world and in particular
the scientific-minded. However, if you check with Heraclitus, Nicolaus
Cusanus, great Taoists and quite a few others (alchemists for
instance, that other bransch of astrologers as they were once known)
you will find that this principle is not a given.

To start with. But let's leave that more philosophical discussion
aside for now and speak in more astrological terms.

What is tropical astrology? It is an astrology based upon the Sun's
path and the solstitial/equinoctial points. That tells us something
about how to understand tropical astrology.

Sidereal astrology is based upon the Heavens as they look to you if
you look up into the skies at night (simply expressed). That is a
quite different foundation, and it is certainly less theoretical than
the tropical. That tells us something about how to understand sidereal
astrology.

Post by A B
But in practice, there must
be thousands of astrologers in India using the sidereal system, and they
don't seem to be going out of business, and neither are the tropical
astrologers. I don't see how to resolve this one, unless you take the view
that neither system works, which doesn't square with my experience.

I do not subscribe to the idea that A must not be not-A. See above.

Post by A B
MH: "As for the invisible hand that steer things up, we can change it, to
become the visible hand of the Astrologers, when they unite their efforts,
to make their studies less chaotic, and more practical and realistic."
I think that's fair enough, in principle - "we" being, not a mythical
"elite", but all astrologers who are interested in testing which methods are
the most useful. Only, isn't that what astrologers have been doing for
centuries? Comparing notes, reading each others' writings, putting evidence
for their favourite theories - and agreeing to differ. Still, the same
could be said of any number of things in the sciences, where the scientists
got there in the end.

I must say that I find expressions like ”constrain the circle” a bit
illboding when it comes to understand what precisely MH means by what
has been said. It sounds like wanting to assume a function of
censoring what is astrology and what is not. In modern times,
astrology is seen as ruled by Uranus, and I think few astrologers
would want a Central Astrological Authority, or anything like it.

Post by A B
Of course, as Kjell says, this is only a little group - we ain't ISAR. But
that's no reason why we shouldn't compare notes a bit. Every little helps.

To me it did not sound as a call to compare notes. It sounded like

”The question is are we to use all these” and it sounded like
”constrain the circle”, both of which I take to mean something quite
different than ”compare notes”.

Post by A B
And this kind of group has its own advantages. I've got plenty of material
that I'd never dream of sending to ISAR or the Astrological Association
Journal. My observations are just too small for that level. And I'm not in
a position to join any local astrology groups. But it's still good stuff
that it would be a pity to waste. (The best are a dozen or so event charts
that I did a while ago. My idea was to work out what meanings for each
factor would make sense in all or most of the charts, and write it up for
the group. I'll do that as soon as I get the chance.)

I do not see what you describe having in mind as being what MH asks
for. Nor did MH explain why your post was a better answer than mine,
so we still do not know by what criteria to judge.

Post by A B
The mantic astrologers needn't read the statistics.

If they do not, how shall we ever be able to ”constrain the circle”?

Post by A B
Meanwhile, those of us
who expect to find some objective meaning in the chart are usually
interested in finding out the best ways of getting at it.

You speak for a limited group, ”those of us expecting...”, MH not so.
MH seems to want some kind of general rules to steer everything up by,
and that is why I react with asking for a clarification of what really
is meant. So far, I have not heard a word saying that I have
misunderstood or that something else was meant.

Post by A B
If the "scientific" community are prepared to reject something that's
supported by experiment, just because the original idea was suggested by a
psychic, shame on them.

They would not accept, and do not now accept, ANY kind of evidence
pointing towards ANYTHING that in the least resembles astrology. If
you believe anything else, you are a romantic.

Post by A B
Kjell: "And do you really think it is even a possible goal to decide what
asteroids, or the Sabians symbols, are supposed to be used for and not? How
do you picture to have such a standardization enforced?"
Presumably in the same way that, say, gardening techniques are "enforced" -
if people know that the evidence points to late autumn being the best time
to plant trees, not many people are likely to plant them in March just from
contrariness. Seems plain enough to me.

Then again, do you know for certain that your rule covers it all? All
trees? Everywhere? What about Australia? ”Oh, but of course, autumn in
Australia would not be autumn in...”

And there you have it. Do you see my point?

[CFA]

Post by Kjell Pettersson

Post by A B
If the "scientific" community are prepared to reject something that's
supported by experiment, just because the original idea was suggested by a
psychic, shame on them.

They would not accept, and do not now accept, ANY kind of evidence
pointing towards ANYTHING that in the least resembles astrology. If
you believe anything else, you are a romantic.

There is at least one caveat to that, tiny as it is: acupuncture
(linked to the idea of meridians and some astrology symbolism) has
potential to permanently lower blood pressure, in patients where this
is an issue.

Ken

[Kjell Pettersson]

Post by CFA

Post by Kjell Pettersson
They would not accept, and do not now accept, ANY kind of evidence
pointing towards ANYTHING that in the least resembles astrology. If
you believe anything else, you are a romantic.

There is at least one caveat to that, tiny as it is: acupuncture
(linked to the idea of meridians and some astrology symbolism) has
potential to permanently lower blood pressure, in patients where this
is an issue.

With "the least resembles astrology" I was thinking of scientific
findings that might be taken as supporting astrology. Such as
variation in getting certain diseases due to birth month. Whenever
there is a piece on chronobiology in the media, you can be certain
that someone will pop up and explain that it CERTAINLY does not have
got anything to do with astrology.

But you are right about acupuncture. The problem for the sceptics
there is that the area to investigate is not as nebulous as astrology.
If actual physical values change, that must mean something.

We astrologers, however, are denied that particular route of evidence,
as medical astrology is not allowed anywhere that I know of. Perhaps
India may be an exception, but theirs is, on the other hand, a culture
where people do not feel it is necessary to prove astrology.

[Kjell Pettersson]

On Dec 30 2010, 11:21 pm, Kjell Pettersson
<***@kjellpettersson.com> wrote:

Quote:
"> Of course, as Kjell says, this is only a little group - we ain't
ISAR. But

Post by A B
that's no reason why we shouldn't compare notes a bit. Every little helps.

To me it did not sound as a call to compare notes. It sounded like
[where the sentence just cuts off]"

I have just noted that my posts get stripped of most things that are
put in quotes, and the quotation marks may go as well. I am afraid I
do not remember what the above half sentence should have ended like.

I think I know the cause (I write the post in a wordprocessor and then
copy it into a post, obviously not a good thing), but please let me
know if you should come across more gibberish.

And, no, I do not refer to my posts in general by that
appellation...! ;-)

[A B]

Post by MH
Researches and Astrological studies, has introduced many subjects to
support Astrology, like fixed stars, asteroids, and more asteroids,
elevated and pitted degrees, the sabian symbols, the arabic parts and
other....
The question is are we to use all these or which is for what?

I've occasionally seen funny things with asteroids, and with fixed stars.
Specifically, the asteroid with my first name is exactly conjunct my Moon.
The chart for the opening of the antechamber of Tutankhamun's tomb had
asteroid Isis, the fixed star Sirius (sacred to the Ancient Egyptians) and
the Part of Fortune conjunct Pluto and the IC. And my Sun/Moon midpoint is
exactly conjunct my father's Sun. For the fixed star Regulus, have a look
at my posting about Prince William's birth chart. I haven't really tried
the others much.

Myself, I mostly stick to the planets (including Uranus, Neptune and Pluto),
tropical signs and equal houses. I find that's enough to tell me as much as
I've got time for. Sometimes use the Moon's Nodes and/or the Part of
Fortune, but that's as far as it goes. Matter of taste, really.

(I like Kjell's posting! :-D)

[Kjell Pettersson]

Post by MH
The question is are we to use all these or which is for what?

Perhaps I am making your question more complicated than it needs to
be. I see now that there is a rather simple way of understanding what
you say, and I shall answer at that level and see if that cuts it.

The question "which is for what" could be answered along these lines:

The nature of the question must determine the nature of the answer. If
someone asks a question about a suitable marriage date, you would
choose to look into the seventh house, Venus (for love), Saturn (for
longevity) and perhaps also check that the chosen chart does not run
into a truckload of problems if you progress it. Problems are
inevitable, but you want to give the couple a chance to settle before
meeting them.

The nature of the question determines the answer. Next comes the range
of options. If it is about electing a chart, you are constrained by
the nature of current time. It doesn't help if Pluto in Leo would be
wonderful in the marriage chart you envision, when Pluto gets there
very few now alive will be alive, if any at all (given current
mortality figures, life span etc). In short, step two puts current
reality (astrologically seen) into the process.

Depending upon what the consultation with the client revolves about, a
similar step-by-step-process can be constructed. Each kind of problem
will have its own process though, but if keeping things at the most
general level I'd say that the question must guide the answer.

If the question would be about royalty, you might want to also look at
the fied star Regulus, if there is a beheading (literal or figurative)
involved, add Algol. Artistic inclination might perhaps be gleaned
from having something conjoining Spica/Arcturus. If about future
prosperity, the Part of Fortune and transits to it from Jupiter and
Saturn could be included. Considering the strength of various signs
and degrees are helpful if you want to evaluate how different
influences balance against each other in a chart. What tools to use
must be decided by what you want to achieve. Hammers for nails, leave
screwdrivers aside. And vice versa, etc.

Then there are more open-ended consultations, where you are not
looking for anything in particular, such as a character reading based
upon the birth chart. There is no obvious question to guide the answer
in such a circumstance. In that situation I find it helpful to
consider the chart itself as an answer, and a question, both in one.
The birth chart is the question the universe asks at at particular
place and time, and that birth chart is also the answer to this
question.

Going from there, it is relevant to look for things such as ”mission
in life” and to frame the individual in a context of meaning. ”Why are
we here?”, ”Where are we headed?” etc are the basic questions
regarding life, and the meaning of life, and seeing the chart in this
way, as both the question and the answer, opens up for defining the
answers to those questions.

I do not see how statistics would improve on this method though, as
this is a rather unscientific way of viewing things. Questions about
meaningfulness and about value are very hard to access from a hardcore
scientific Weltanschaung, and statistics does not help people in
general to know what is their heart's desire. Insofar, I am hostile to
relying upon that mindset. Science still has not resolved the question
of man's consciousness, so it is doubtful it has got anything to offer
in certain areas.

[MH]

Thank you Kjell for trying to understand my way of thinking, and
trying to clarify and help, and sorry I am not much for words as for
their practical use, with my virgo logic but not sign, I want to see
thoughts taking shape and reality. When I said statistics, I meant
that if most of the Astrologers take part, and for example state their
field of specialization, modern, horary, mundane etc.....
and what works best for each in their field, we can determine what
works best in that particular field, and what is second best and so
on.... So we can classify and put into better use the available
researches and even make way for more.

HAPPY NEW YEAR.

M.H.

[Sharon]

Post by MH
Thank you Kjell for trying to understand my way of thinking, and
trying to clarify and help, and sorry I am not much for words as for
their practical use, with my virgo logic but not sign, I want to see
thoughts taking shape and reality. When I said statistics, I meant
that if most of the Astrologers take part, and for example state their
field of specialization, modern, horary, mundane etc.....
and what works best for each in their field, we can determine what
works best in that particular field, and what is second best and so
on.... So we can classify and put into better use the available
researches and even make way for more.
HAPPY NEW YEAR.
M.H.

Interesting discussion. You know, I went through a period (I'm sure
Ken remembers) when I wanted to see astrology tested scientifically
somehow, with statistics and what ever other methods came to mind.
What works, what doesn't, and all that. What I came to realize is that
astrology is a bit like psychology, in that what works in one
situation or for one person doesn't necessarily work in or for
another.

We all learn our basics (I'm talking about tropical here, I never
studied sidereal) Saturn is limiting, Jupiter is expansive, Cancer is
protective and blah, blah, blah. But what we do with that knowledge is
more art than science, I believe, and there is an intuitive factor
that can't be quantified. Some use fixed stars and asteroids, some
only use traditional planets and wouldn't dream of including Uranus in
a chart reading. And you know what? If they're good at it, two
different astrologers, using completely different methods will arrive
at basically the same conclusions.

I once caused a minor shitstorm by telling someone that astrology
could and should be tested, and I still believe that; but I'm not sure
it will ever prove anything. And getting astrologers to agree on
anything is like herding cats.

Have you ever seen the TV show Bones? Dr. Brennan is a forensic
anthropologist, and she's all about facts and evidence. She hates
psychology and never makes assumptions. Her FBI partner Booth goes
with his gut every time, and together, they solve murders. It just
wouldn't work without both of them. Afetr reading lots and lots of
charts, we learn things, and you could (and I'm stretchingg here, I
know) call those facts. But astrologers take those "facts" and then
rely on their gut or intuition to really come up with an answer. Now,
in some things (like Lilly's guide to finding lost items) you just go
step by step and , in my experience, you find what you're looking for.
But in the reading of a natal chart or a wedding chart or something
like that, it takes both learning and intuition to get it right...not
to mention lots of practice.

Oh, and as an aside about asteroids, you might be interested in this
article. I didn't use asteroids when I started researching it, but I
was amazed at the synchronicity when I looked into it.
http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0001017.HTM

S

[MH]

Thank you Sharon for your answer, but still you did not mention your
field of specialization and what works best for you. If we start here
by taking a positive step no matter how small, and so would other
Astrological groups and communities, at the end I am sure we can
achieve some positive result. The reason I started this topic, is that
I noticed that the majority of young astrologers,
do not depend on intuition nor use their gut feelings, but depend
totally on statistics, researches and whatever new trends that
surfaces. If we do not put some order in our backyard, soon Astrology
will become totally chaotic and torn apart. The basics differ from one
generation to the other, and order is the best way to fight chaos,
make a strong foundation to build on.

WISH YOU A PROSPEROUS 2011

M.H.

[Sharon]

Post by MH
Thank you Sharon for your answer, but still you did not mention your
field of specialization

Don't really have one. I use tropical, do events and natals, I like
traditional but use modern planets too.

Post by MH
and what works best for you.

I'm really not sure how to answer that. Many things work for me.

Post by MH
If we start here
by taking a positive step no matter how small, and so would other
Astrological groups and communities, at the end I am sure we can
achieve some positive result.

Again, that would be like herding cats. Every astrologer I know does
it a bit different.

Post by MH
The reason I started this topic, is that
I noticed that the majority of young astrologers,
do not depend on intuition nor use their gut feelings, but depend
totally on statistics, researches and whatever new trends that
surfaces.

Really? What statistics? Whose research? What new trends?

Post by MH
If we do not put some order in our backyard, soon Astrology
will become totally chaotic and torn apart. The basics differ from one
generation to the other,

I don't see it that way. We learn planets, signs, aspects as the
basics. If we do traditional we might also learn the humors, planetary
hours, etc. We learn from books and other astrologers, and then after
a lot of practice, we see what works and how it comes together. Some
of us write books and articles about our experiences, but astrologers
are a freespirited bunch and after the basics, don't seem to take well
to and kind of central "rule book" or whatever.

Post by MH
and order is the best way to fight chaos,
make a strong foundation to build on.

I do not wish to offend you, but isn't all this worry about chaos a
tempest in a teacup? The scientific community ignores or makes fun of
astrology so it isn't like there is much interest in developing
standards that would suit everyone...and very few astrologers would go
along with that, anyway. I think the chaos is just part and parcel of
the discipline.

Post by MH
WISH YOU A PROSPEROUS 2011
M.H

Same to you.

S

[Kjell Pettersson]

Post by Sharon

Post by MH
The reason I started this topic, is that
I noticed that the majority of young astrologers,
do not depend on intuition nor use their gut feelings, but depend
totally on statistics, researches and whatever new trends that
surfaces.

Really? What statistics? Whose research? What new trends?

Good questions.

[a***@yahoo.com]

Post by MH
Thank you Sharon for your answer, but still you did not mention your
field of specialization and what works best for you. If we start here
by taking a positive step no matter how small, and so would other
Astrological groups and communities, at the end I am sure we can
achieve some positive result. The reason I started this topic, is that
I noticed that the majority of young astrologers,
do not depend on intuition nor use their gut feelings, but depend
totally on statistics, researches and whatever new trends that
surfaces. If we do not put some order in our backyard, soon Astrology
will become totally chaotic and torn apart. The basics differ from one
generation to the other, and order is the best way to fight chaos,
make a strong foundation to build on.
WISH YOU A PROSPEROUS 2011
M.H. ch

The Astrological community is already chaotic and torn apart

Steven Forrest already said that there is a Tower of Babel in
Astrological community.


There is a lot of diversity in Astrology, but there is much
intolerance of it too.


Raymond

[Kjell Pettersson]

Post by MH
Thank you Kjell for trying to understand

My pleasure!

Post by MH
When I said statistics, I meant
that if most of the Astrologers take part, and for example state their
field of specialization, modern, horary, mundane etc.....
and what works best for each in their field, we can determine what
works best in that particular field, and what is second best and so
on.... So we can classify and put into better use the available
researches and even make way for more.

I think it would be a realistic aim if the universities of the world
would suddenly accept astrology, because it would take that kind of
resources. The subject is just way too big to be easily summarized.

If we look at mathematics, with which astrology co-originated, that
science is today so big that it is not even possible to get a grasp on
an overall picture. It has branched out in too many ways. Of course,
they had the universities, but OTOH that only compounded to the
situation.

Astrology is not as big as mathematics seen to present volume of
research etc, but it is potentially just as big. They are both "meta-
sciences", and can be applied to practically anything you come across.
Medicine uses math and has been and could well again be using
astrology, and similar arguments could be repeated for most sciences.

Not having these academic resources, the project would force those
doing research to choose between organizing knowledge and increase
knowledge. I would also want to see people do this organization but I
would never myself make organization the priority, and I guess I am
not alone in that. Especially those who feel they have some fertile
area to research would, I think, be rather unwilling to make
organization of knowledge their first priority.

[pedantus]

Post by MH
Researches and Astrological studies, has introduced many subjects to
support Astrology, like fixed stars, asteroids, and more asteroids,
elevated and pitted degrees, the sabian symbols, the arabic parts and
other....
The question is are we to use all these or which is for what?

I guess it depends on what you want them to do. I find that I have
in no way exhausted the potential of 10 planets in aspects, houses,
and signs (in that order)--altogether they constitute something akin
to the DNA molecule of astrology itself. Any complex symbol can be
seen as being molecular, and the planets more atomistic by
comparison. Planets as material and motives, along with aspects and
houses as functions and or goals seem to be the hidden structure of
anything one may imagine. But, then, I seek to use these things
merely as a heuristic for analysis, a means by which I might better
understand the nature of an individual and what he/she may seem to
desire to express as a function of individual identity-- the primary
task for all is apparently the ever closer approximation of
individualization--'being' and becoming what one already is in terms
of one's birth "imprint," as Kepler seemed to imply. He also thought
98% of all astrology was just 'bathwater'... : )

Rog

[MH]

Post by MH
Researches and Astrological studies, has introduced many subjects to
support Astrology, like fixed stars, asteroids, and more asteroids,
elevated and pitted degrees, the sabian symbols, the arabic parts and
other....
The question is are we to use all these or which is for what?

    I guess it depends on what you want them to do. I find that I have
in no way exhausted the potential of 10 planets in aspects, houses,
and signs (in that order)--altogether they constitute something akin
to the DNA molecule of astrology itself.  Any complex symbol can be
seen as being molecular, and the planets more atomistic by
comparison.  Planets as material and motives, along with aspects and
houses as functions and or goals seem to be the hidden structure of
anything one may imagine.  But, then, I seek to use these things
merely as a heuristic for analysis, a means by which I might better
understand the nature of an individual and what he/she may seem to
desire to express as a function of individual identity-- the primary
task for all is apparently the ever closer approximation of
individualization--'being' and becoming what one already is in terms
of one's birth "imprint,"  as Kepler seemed to imply.  He also thought
98% of all astrology was just 'bathwater'... : )
Rog

Most of the experienced Astrologers follow the same route, with an
extra step for more. But the younger generation, starts with the
thousand asteroids, and ends with aliens. As for myself,
I frankly get mixed up, for example whether to use the Sabian Symbols,
or the English elevated or pitted degrees, or the French 360 degrees
of the zodiac by Janduz etc......, so I thought as much as we are
different, we all love Astrology, and even though we are not
acknowledged by the Scientific Society, there is a part in each one of
us that is proud of Astrology, because it helps in making us better
persons on several dimensions, if we do not try to put some order, I
wonder how things would be after three or four generations. Thank you.

M.H.