Amusing memory

[[e-mail]]

Just because it's the eve of Thanksgiving in the States (a day of
eating until you vomit, followed by a day of spending for
Christmas presents until you're broke), our international friends
- the ones who aren't running away to form their own groups -
shouldn't think *everything* is dead here, today.

I was just looking at charts and some memories drifted back of
better (which, for me, is only just south of awful) days.

I didn't go to many seminars, although they were, and probably
still are, plentiful, due to my acute discomfort in crowded
areas. But I went to some (and, since I helped with the chapter
conferences, I sat in on even more - which is another story).

I think the most memorable for me was John Marchesella's seminar
on Saturn.

The large audience of students was cramped into a tiny area. It
was dreadfully claustrophobic (for me). We waited an eternity,
while John sort of hung around...

When he finally spoke, he casually said something like, "That was
Saturn."

I took a lot of notes, and probably still have them somewhere,
but that's pretty much all I remember - and that's Saturn, too.
:-)

[Hermes]

***@twixtntween.com wrote:

: Just because it's the eve of Thanksgiving in the States (a day of
: eating until you vomit, followed by a day of spending for
: Christmas presents until you're broke), our international friends
: - the ones who aren't running away to form their own groups -
: shouldn't think *everything* is dead here, today.
:
: I was just looking at charts and some memories drifted back of
: better (which, for me, is only just south of awful) days.
:
: I didn't go to many seminars, although they were, and probably
: still are, plentiful, due to my acute discomfort in crowded
: areas. But I went to some (and, since I helped with the chapter
: conferences, I sat in on even more - which is another story).
:
: I think the most memorable for me was John Marchesella's seminar
: on Saturn.
:
: The large audience of students was cramped into a tiny area. It
: was dreadfully claustrophobic (for me). We waited an eternity,
: while John sort of hung around...
:
: When he finally spoke, he casually said something like, "That was
: Saturn."
:
: I took a lot of notes, and probably still have them somewhere,
: but that's pretty much all I remember - and that's Saturn, too.
: :-)

Reminds me of a similar situation in the fourth seminar by
Liz Greene that I visited in Zurich in March 2000, with the
sun already very close to the end of Pisces. (I did not go
many seminars in my life, either, an have not been to one
since 2004).

The seminar was about Jupiter and lots of people turned out,
so many that they placed some chars in the aisle between the
two roots of seats, I sat down on one of them, because the
rows were already filled when I arrived. At the first break,
at around 10 AM or so, I left and drove on the freeway to
a store where I bought a new palm Pilot and started to write
the astrology program "Delphi", which I published about half
a year later. I remember that while driving home from the
store on the freeway, I knew that the sun had just entered
Aries and noticed that people started to drive a bit more
agressively...

I guess Jupiter in contrast to Saturn is not so much bound
in structures, rather tries to break out of them, to find a
way out, a new way of doing things, also a bit like the
archer (<=> Sagittarius) that I mentioned recently:


: I like the association with the ninth house. Reminds me also
: of a sculpture in Miami that I once saw: An archer crouching
: in the middle of a little bridge, protecting a woman and a
: child with his body and aiming with his bow and arrow straight
: up vertically into the sky.

I also remember that someone who was my boss and a Sagittarius
had something pinned to his wall at work that said "If what you
are doing has no effect, do something else".

Regarding "our international friends - the ones who aren't
running away to form their own groups -", don't worry, at least
not in my case :). A German newsgroup is not what my heart
beats for - as a Swiss (and I can probably speak for most of
my fellow Swiss), the USA is emotionally much closer than our
immediate northern neighbour. Swiss culture is much less based
on the "word" in spoken language than German culture. When
Swiss speak in their own language and among themselves, a lot
is more implicit, "unspoken", in intonation, and a more direct
bond between each other.

You know, about two months ago, someone offered me to write
an article for a British journal related to psychological
astrology, about my model of the star signs that I recently
posted here and is on my web site and which I mentioned in
past several times here. In the end I declined, not really
for any conscious rational reasons, because they would have
spoken for doing it, but because it did not feel right.

Instead, I guess I chose the "more sagittarian way" of just
letting the article rest at my web site and publishing it
also here. I guess I do not fit in with a journal that does
in some way remain within its fated roots (Liz Greene's
The Astrology of Fate, and the people who adhere to that in
a way that does not surpass certain limits). Has certainly
also something to do with Cancer, where I have 3 planets,
Jupiter, Mars, Venus, conjunct, in that order, and where the
sun of the USA is. A sort of irrational (water), almost
lunatic (moon) of doing things not in the immediately and
rationally expected way...

)o+

[[e-mail]]

On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:56:05 -0600, Hermes

Post by Hermes
: Just because it's the eve of Thanksgiving in the States (a day of
: eating until you vomit, followed by a day of spending for
: Christmas presents until you're broke), our international friends
: - the ones who aren't running away to form their own groups -
: shouldn't think *everything* is dead here, today.
: I was just looking at charts and some memories drifted back of
: better (which, for me, is only just south of awful) days.
: I didn't go to many seminars, although they were, and probably
: still are, plentiful, due to my acute discomfort in crowded
: areas. But I went to some (and, since I helped with the chapter
: conferences, I sat in on even more - which is another story).
: I think the most memorable for me was John Marchesella's seminar
: on Saturn.
: The large audience of students was cramped into a tiny area. It
: was dreadfully claustrophobic (for me). We waited an eternity,
: while John sort of hung around...
: When he finally spoke, he casually said something like, "That was
: Saturn."
: I took a lot of notes, and probably still have them somewhere,
: but that's pretty much all I remember - and that's Saturn, too.
: :-)
Reminds me of a similar situation in the fourth seminar by
Liz Greene that I visited in Zurich in March 2000, with the
sun already very close to the end of Pisces. (I did not go
many seminars in my life, either, an have not been to one
since 2004).
The seminar was about Jupiter and lots of people turned out,
so many that they placed some chars in the aisle between the
two roots of seats, I sat down on one of them, because the
rows were already filled when I arrived. At the first break,
at around 10 AM or so, I left and drove on the freeway to
a store where I bought a new palm Pilot and started to write
the astrology program "Delphi", which I published about half
a year later. I remember that while driving home from the
store on the freeway, I knew that the sun had just entered
Aries and noticed that people started to drive a bit more
agressively...

Perhaps a Mars hour had also begun. :-)

Post by Hermes
I guess Jupiter in contrast to Saturn is not so much bound
in structures, rather tries to break out of them, to find a
way out, a new way of doing things, also a bit like the
: I like the association with the ninth house. Reminds me also
: of a sculpture in Miami that I once saw: An archer crouching
: in the middle of a little bridge, protecting a woman and a
: child with his body and aiming with his bow and arrow straight
: up vertically into the sky.
I also remember that someone who was my boss and a Sagittarius
had something pinned to his wall at work that said "If what you
are doing has no effect, do something else".
Regarding "our international friends - the ones who aren't
running away to form their own groups -", don't worry, at least
not in my case :). A German newsgroup is not what my heart
beats for - as a Swiss (and I can probably speak for most of
my fellow Swiss), the USA is emotionally much closer than our
immediate northern neighbour. Swiss culture is much less based
on the "word" in spoken language than German culture. When
Swiss speak in their own language and among themselves, a lot
is more implicit, "unspoken", in intonation, and a more direct
bond between each other.

That's interesting. I was under the impression (mistakenly?)
that the Swiss spoke either German, Italian, or French, depending
upon the region closest to each of those countries?

Post by Hermes
You know, about two months ago, someone offered me to write
an article for a British journal related to psychological
astrology, about my model of the star signs that I recently
posted here and is on my web site and which I mentioned in
past several times here. In the end I declined, not really
for any conscious rational reasons, because they would have
spoken for doing it, but because it did not feel right.
Instead, I guess I chose the "more sagittarian way" of just
letting the article rest at my web site and publishing it
also here. I guess I do not fit in with a journal that does
in some way remain within its fated roots (Liz Greene's
The Astrology of Fate, and the people who adhere to that in
a way that does not surpass certain limits). Has certainly
also something to do with Cancer, where I have 3 planets,
Jupiter, Mars, Venus, conjunct, in that order, and where the
sun of the USA is. A sort of irrational (water), almost
lunatic (moon) of doing things not in the immediately and
rationally expected way...

I just looked at your Google profile. It is impressive, and you
are very handsome! I'm going to look at your chart.

Probably unlike you, I am extremely rooted in determinism now
(and since the past several years). I recently made a new
discovery, concerning astrology and numbers, which would provide
a new way of predicting good and bad years in an earthly entity's
existence. The problem is that an astrologer would have to be
able to judge the condition of the luminaries and planets in the
classical way, and those who practice modern astrology (the
majority, still) would be unable to do that.

At the moment, I have abandoned the idea of presenting what I've
discovered.

Post by Hermes
)o+

[Hermes]

***@twixtntween.com wrote:

: On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:56:05 -0600, Hermes
: <***@bluewin.ch> wrote:
:
: >***@twixtntween.com wrote:
: >
: >: Just because it's the eve of Thanksgiving in the States (a day of
: >: eating until you vomit, followed by a day of spending for
: >: Christmas presents until you're broke), our international friends
: >: - the ones who aren't running away to form their own groups -
: >: shouldn't think *everything* is dead here, today.
: >:
: >: I was just looking at charts and some memories drifted back of
: >: better (which, for me, is only just south of awful) days.
: >:
: >: I didn't go to many seminars, although they were, and probably
: >: still are, plentiful, due to my acute discomfort in crowded
: >: areas. But I went to some (and, since I helped with the chapter
: >: conferences, I sat in on even more - which is another story).
: >:
: >: I think the most memorable for me was John Marchesella's seminar
: >: on Saturn.
: >:
: >: The large audience of students was cramped into a tiny area. It
: >: was dreadfully claustrophobic (for me). We waited an eternity,
: >: while John sort of hung around...
: >:
: >: When he finally spoke, he casually said something like, "That was
: >: Saturn."
: >:
: >: I took a lot of notes, and probably still have them somewhere,
: >: but that's pretty much all I remember - and that's Saturn, too.
: >: :-)
: >
: >Reminds me of a similar situation in the fourth seminar by
: >Liz Greene that I visited in Zurich in March 2000, with the
: >sun already very close to the end of Pisces. (I did not go
: >many seminars in my life, either, an have not been to one
: >since 2004).
: >
: >The seminar was about Jupiter and lots of people turned out,
: >so many that they placed some chars in the aisle between the
: >two roots of seats, I sat down on one of them, because the
: >rows were already filled when I arrived. At the first break,
: >at around 10 AM or so, I left and drove on the freeway to
: >a store where I bought a new palm Pilot and started to write
: >the astrology program "Delphi", which I published about half
: >a year later. I remember that while driving home from the
: >store on the freeway, I knew that the sun had just entered
: >Aries and noticed that people started to drive a bit more
: >agressively...
:
: Perhaps a Mars hour had also begun. :-)


I have checked what day the seminar was:

Saturday 18 March 2000
Liz Greene, Zurich: Jupiter: Con Artist or Giver of Gifts?
-- http://www.astro.com/people/greene_sem00_e.htm

That morning, the sun was still at 28 Pisces, so my memory
must have been wrong. Maybe that observation on the freeway
was two days later (but the sun entered Aries already at
about 8 AM then, i.e. too early for me to have been driving
in the direction I remember), or even another year...

Maybe in 2001: Sun into Aries Tuesday, 20 March at 1:56 PM,
sunrise (sun at AC) at 06:34 AM, so the second Mars hour at
1:34 PM might have been correlated with that ???

: >I guess Jupiter in contrast to Saturn is not so much bound
: >in structures, rather tries to break out of them, to find a
: >way out, a new way of doing things, also a bit like the
: >archer (<=> Sagittarius) that I mentioned recently:
: >
: >
: >: I like the association with the ninth house. Reminds me also
: >: of a sculpture in Miami that I once saw: An archer crouching
: >: in the middle of a little bridge, protecting a woman and a
: >: child with his body and aiming with his bow and arrow straight
: >: up vertically into the sky.
: >
: >I also remember that someone who was my boss and a Sagittarius
: >had something pinned to his wall at work that said "If what you
: >are doing has no effect, do something else".
: >
: >Regarding "our international friends - the ones who aren't
: >running away to form their own groups -", don't worry, at least
: >not in my case :). A German newsgroup is not what my heart
: >beats for - as a Swiss (and I can probably speak for most of
: >my fellow Swiss), the USA is emotionally much closer than our
: >immediate northern neighbour. Swiss culture is much less based
: >on the "word" in spoken language than German culture. When
: >Swiss speak in their own language and among themselves, a lot
: >is more implicit, "unspoken", in intonation, and a more direct
: >bond between each other.
:
: That's interesting. I was under the impression (mistakenly?)
: that the Swiss spoke either German, Italian, or French, depending
: upon the region closest to each of those countries?

Yes, that's basically true (there is also a fourth language
that a small group speaks, a roman language similar to Italian
and French). My native tongue is basically a German dialect.
People from the very south of Germany can understand me when
I speak in my native tongue. There is a big cultural difference,
though, in the way language is used between most parts of
Switzerland and most parts of Germany. German culture can in
my impression be much more be mapped to eloquent sentences and
is thus in many respects directly visible in written language,
while in "Swiss" a lot more is lost in my impression by simply
transcribing the spoken words. (There are also practically no
books in Swiss dialects, almost all Swiss literature is in
"high German".) I hope that clarifies things a little bit.

: >You know, about two months ago, someone offered me to write
: >an article for a British journal related to psychological
: >astrology, about my model of the star signs that I recently
: >posted here and is on my web site and which I mentioned in
: >past several times here. In the end I declined, not really
: >for any conscious rational reasons, because they would have
: >spoken for doing it, but because it did not feel right.
: >
: >Instead, I guess I chose the "more sagittarian way" of just
: >letting the article rest at my web site and publishing it
: >also here. I guess I do not fit in with a journal that does
: >in some way remain within its fated roots (Liz Greene's
: >The Astrology of Fate, and the people who adhere to that in
: >a way that does not surpass certain limits). Has certainly
: >also something to do with Cancer, where I have 3 planets,
: >Jupiter, Mars, Venus, conjunct, in that order, and where the
: >sun of the USA is. A sort of irrational (water), almost
: >lunatic (moon) of doing things not in the immediately and
: >rationally expected way...
:
: I just looked at your Google profile. It is impressive, and you
: are very handsome! I'm going to look at your chart.


Thanks!

: Probably unlike you, I am extremely rooted in determinism now
: (and since the past several years). I recently made a new
: discovery, concerning astrology and numbers, which would provide
: a new way of predicting good and bad years in an earthly entity's
: existence. The problem is that an astrologer would have to be
: able to judge the condition of the luminaries and planets in the
: classical way, and those who practice modern astrology (the
: majority, still) would be unable to do that.


I think as a scientist I also have a very precise and
deterministic side, maybe expressed by the close trine
between Mercury at the AC and Saturn. (I guess Saturn-
Mercury aspects are not uncommon for scientists).

I imagine one part of how my mind works often a bit like
this: The conjunction of Venus-Mars-Jupiter in Cancer in
the 12th produces many ideas, which are then already tested
by Neptune/s.node in Scorpio at a close trine and also via
less close trine to Saturn at the end of Pisces, to make it
out to spoken/written word via close trine to Mercury at the
end of the 12th and in early Leo conjunct the AC. (Mercury
is otherwise not really aspected by anything in my chart,
just semisquares to Ura-Plu, if you count these.)

What I like about traditional methods in astrology is that
they are specific; they could be tested experimentally and
would allow to be verified or falsified with much more
certainty than most modern concepts.

: At the moment, I have abandoned the idea of presenting what I've
: discovered.

I would like to hear about it when the time is right.

When I first published my ideas in 2002, I would have
never thought that it would take 7 years(!) until about
two people would to say "hey, there might be something
to this". Maybe I am just to impatient... :(
(So far nobody is saying, "hey this is the maybe one
of the greatest discoveries in astrology of the 21st
century", as I personally would like to hear ;), but
maybe in seven more years or so... :)

Or maybe it is just Uranus in Pisces that makes current
times a bit "medieval" in the sense that people do not
so much want to know how things "work" analytically like
it was with Galileo and the Church etc. in the past. In
that sense, "uranian spring" might be only something like
1-2 years away, but I have a very lousy track records
with regard to predictions... (Maybe I should really take
a heart and take a deeper look into traditional methods.)

)o+

[[e-mail]]

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 07:53:36 -0600, Hermes

Post by Hermes
: On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:56:05 -0600, Hermes
: >
: >: Just because it's the eve of Thanksgiving in the States (a day of
: >: eating until you vomit, followed by a day of spending for
: >: Christmas presents until you're broke), our international friends
: >: - the ones who aren't running away to form their own groups -
: >: shouldn't think *everything* is dead here, today.
: >: I was just looking at charts and some memories drifted back of
: >: better (which, for me, is only just south of awful) days.
: >: I didn't go to many seminars, although they were, and probably
: >: still are, plentiful, due to my acute discomfort in crowded
: >: areas. But I went to some (and, since I helped with the chapter
: >: conferences, I sat in on even more - which is another story).
: >: I think the most memorable for me was John Marchesella's seminar
: >: on Saturn.
: >: The large audience of students was cramped into a tiny area. It
: >: was dreadfully claustrophobic (for me). We waited an eternity,
: >: while John sort of hung around...
: >: When he finally spoke, he casually said something like, "That was
: >: Saturn."
: >: I took a lot of notes, and probably still have them somewhere,
: >: but that's pretty much all I remember - and that's Saturn, too.
: >: :-)
: >
: >Reminds me of a similar situation in the fourth seminar by
: >Liz Greene that I visited in Zurich in March 2000, with the
: >sun already very close to the end of Pisces. (I did not go
: >many seminars in my life, either, an have not been to one
: >since 2004).
: >
: >The seminar was about Jupiter and lots of people turned out,
: >so many that they placed some chars in the aisle between the
: >two roots of seats, I sat down on one of them, because the
: >rows were already filled when I arrived. At the first break,
: >at around 10 AM or so, I left and drove on the freeway to
: >a store where I bought a new palm Pilot and started to write
: >the astrology program "Delphi", which I published about half
: >a year later. I remember that while driving home from the
: >store on the freeway, I knew that the sun had just entered
: >Aries and noticed that people started to drive a bit more
: >agressively...
: Perhaps a Mars hour had also begun. :-)
Saturday 18 March 2000
Liz Greene, Zurich: Jupiter: Con Artist or Giver of Gifts?
-- http://www.astro.com/people/greene_sem00_e.htm
That morning, the sun was still at 28 Pisces, so my memory
must have been wrong. Maybe that observation on the freeway
was two days later (but the sun entered Aries already at
about 8 AM then, i.e. too early for me to have been driving
in the direction I remember), or even another year...
Maybe in 2001: Sun into Aries Tuesday, 20 March at 1:56 PM,
sunrise (sun at AC) at 06:34 AM, so the second Mars hour at
1:34 PM might have been correlated with that ???

It would be easy to find out - all we need are the geographical
coordinates. Sounds about right, though, since at the vernal
equinox (for the northern hemisphere) the hours are about equally
divided throughout the day and night.

Post by Hermes
: >I guess Jupiter in contrast to Saturn is not so much bound
: >in structures, rather tries to break out of them, to find a
: >way out, a new way of doing things, also a bit like the
: >
: >
: >: I like the association with the ninth house. Reminds me also
: >: of a sculpture in Miami that I once saw: An archer crouching
: >: in the middle of a little bridge, protecting a woman and a
: >: child with his body and aiming with his bow and arrow straight
: >: up vertically into the sky.
: >
: >I also remember that someone who was my boss and a Sagittarius
: >had something pinned to his wall at work that said "If what you
: >are doing has no effect, do something else".
: >
: >Regarding "our international friends - the ones who aren't
: >running away to form their own groups -", don't worry, at least
: >not in my case :). A German newsgroup is not what my heart
: >beats for - as a Swiss (and I can probably speak for most of
: >my fellow Swiss), the USA is emotionally much closer than our
: >immediate northern neighbour. Swiss culture is much less based
: >on the "word" in spoken language than German culture. When
: >Swiss speak in their own language and among themselves, a lot
: >is more implicit, "unspoken", in intonation, and a more direct
: >bond between each other.
: That's interesting. I was under the impression (mistakenly?)
: that the Swiss spoke either German, Italian, or French, depending
: upon the region closest to each of those countries?
Yes, that's basically true (there is also a fourth language
that a small group speaks, a roman language similar to Italian
and French). My native tongue is basically a German dialect.
People from the very south of Germany can understand me when
I speak in my native tongue. There is a big cultural difference,
though, in the way language is used between most parts of
Switzerland and most parts of Germany. German culture can in
my impression be much more be mapped to eloquent sentences and
is thus in many respects directly visible in written language,
while in "Swiss" a lot more is lost in my impression by simply
transcribing the spoken words. (There are also practically no
books in Swiss dialects, almost all Swiss literature is in
"high German".) I hope that clarifies things a little bit.

Yes, thanks. Language interests me, because a given language can
reflect so much about the culture of the population who speak it.
(Much like a chart of a nation, or group, etc.) I remember a
conversation I had with a former business associate who was
natively from Iran. She told me that in her native language,
there was no word for a particular thing (I forgot what) - not an
item, but a word for a particular state of being. I thought that
was fascinating and, at the time, gave me an insight into that
culture I otherwise never would have had.

(And I guess I no longer have that insight, since I forgot what
the word was - but I know, at least, that language has a great
deal to do with describing a culture.)

Post by Hermes
: >You know, about two months ago, someone offered me to write
: >an article for a British journal related to psychological
: >astrology, about my model of the star signs that I recently
: >posted here and is on my web site and which I mentioned in
: >past several times here. In the end I declined, not really
: >for any conscious rational reasons, because they would have
: >spoken for doing it, but because it did not feel right.
: >
: >Instead, I guess I chose the "more sagittarian way" of just
: >letting the article rest at my web site and publishing it
: >also here. I guess I do not fit in with a journal that does
: >in some way remain within its fated roots (Liz Greene's
: >The Astrology of Fate, and the people who adhere to that in
: >a way that does not surpass certain limits). Has certainly
: >also something to do with Cancer, where I have 3 planets,
: >Jupiter, Mars, Venus, conjunct, in that order, and where the
: >sun of the USA is. A sort of irrational (water), almost
: >lunatic (moon) of doing things not in the immediately and
: >rationally expected way...
: I just looked at your Google profile. It is impressive, and you
: are very handsome! I'm going to look at your chart.
Thanks!

:-) I did look at your chart. It's excellent for writing.

Post by Hermes
: Probably unlike you, I am extremely rooted in determinism now
: (and since the past several years). I recently made a new
: discovery, concerning astrology and numbers, which would provide
: a new way of predicting good and bad years in an earthly entity's
: existence. The problem is that an astrologer would have to be
: able to judge the condition of the luminaries and planets in the
: classical way, and those who practice modern astrology (the
: majority, still) would be unable to do that.
I think as a scientist I also have a very precise and
deterministic side, maybe expressed by the close trine
between Mercury at the AC and Saturn. (I guess Saturn-
Mercury aspects are not uncommon for scientists).

Yes, I agree. What is the source of your birth time? Family
record? Hospital record?

Post by Hermes
I imagine one part of how my mind works often a bit like
this: The conjunction of Venus-Mars-Jupiter in Cancer in
the 12th produces many ideas, which are then already tested
by Neptune/s.node in Scorpio at a close trine and also via
less close trine to Saturn at the end of Pisces, to make it
out to spoken/written word via close trine to Mercury at the
end of the 12th and in early Leo conjunct the AC. (Mercury
is otherwise not really aspected by anything in my chart,
just semisquares to Ura-Plu, if you count these.)
What I like about traditional methods in astrology is that
they are specific; they could be tested experimentally and
would allow to be verified or falsified with much more
certainty than most modern concepts.

Yes, they follow rules and formulae.

Post by Hermes
: At the moment, I have abandoned the idea of presenting what I've
: discovered.
I would like to hear about it when the time is right.

It seems to me that many of us are better off without it,
especially as we age. The worry and/or apprehension is not
healthy for anyone who is strongly rooted in determinism. I feel
it would do more harm than good. We could say that about many
things in astrology, though.

Post by Hermes
When I first published my ideas in 2002, I would have
never thought that it would take 7 years(!) until about
two people would to say "hey, there might be something
to this". Maybe I am just to impatient... :(

:-)

Post by Hermes
(So far nobody is saying, "hey this is the maybe one
of the greatest discoveries in astrology of the 21st
century", as I personally would like to hear ;), but
maybe in seven more years or so... :)

:-)

Post by Hermes
Or maybe it is just Uranus in Pisces that makes current
times a bit "medieval" in the sense that people do not
so much want to know how things "work" analytically like
it was with Galileo and the Church etc. in the past. In
that sense, "uranian spring" might be only something like
1-2 years away, but I have a very lousy track records
with regard to predictions... (Maybe I should really take
a heart and take a deeper look into traditional methods.)

Understanding a chart in great depth usually results in more
accurate prediction. Don't feel bad - it took me over 10 years
before I was able to do even slightly well with prediction, and
that was when I was still using only modern methods of chart
reading. I did improve, still using modern methods, but now my
way of seeing a chart is much different from the modern eye. It
took me a very long time (over 25 years?) to learn how extremely
intricate any given chart is with classical methodology[1],
because I had been so rooted in modern-mainstream astrology.

[1] Not that I am an expert now, by any means! There is so much
to learn, it is humbling.

Post by Hermes
)o+

[Hermes]

***@twixtntween.com wrote:

: On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 07:53:36 -0600, Hermes
: <***@bluewin.ch> wrote:
:
: >***@twixtntween.com wrote:
: >
: >: On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:56:05 -0600, Hermes
: >: <***@bluewin.ch> wrote:
: >:
: >: >***@twixtntween.com wrote:
: >: >
: >: >: Just because it's the eve of Thanksgiving in the States (a day
of
: >: >: eating until you vomit, followed by a day of spending for
: >: >: Christmas presents until you're broke), our international
friends
: >: >: - the ones who aren't running away to form their own groups -
: >: >: shouldn't think *everything* is dead here, today.
: >: >:
: >: >: I was just looking at charts and some memories drifted back of
: >: >: better (which, for me, is only just south of awful) days.
: >: >:
: >: >: I didn't go to many seminars, although they were, and probably
: >: >: still are, plentiful, due to my acute discomfort in crowded
: >: >: areas. But I went to some (and, since I helped with the
chapter
: >: >: conferences, I sat in on even more - which is another story).
: >: >:
: >: >: I think the most memorable for me was John Marchesella's
seminar
: >: >: on Saturn.
: >: >:
: >: >: The large audience of students was cramped into a tiny area.
It
: >: >: was dreadfully claustrophobic (for me). We waited an
eternity,
: >: >: while John sort of hung around...
: >: >:
: >: >: When he finally spoke, he casually said something like, "That
was
: >: >: Saturn."
: >: >:
: >: >: I took a lot of notes, and probably still have them somewhere,
: >: >: but that's pretty much all I remember - and that's Saturn,
too.
: >: >: :-)
: >: >
: >: >Reminds me of a similar situation in the fourth seminar by
: >: >Liz Greene that I visited in Zurich in March 2000, with the
: >: >sun already very close to the end of Pisces. (I did not go
: >: >many seminars in my life, either, an have not been to one
: >: >since 2004).
: >: >
: >: >The seminar was about Jupiter and lots of people turned out,
: >: >so many that they placed some chars in the aisle between the
: >: >two roots of seats, I sat down on one of them, because the
: >: >rows were already filled when I arrived. At the first break,
: >: >at around 10 AM or so, I left and drove on the freeway to
: >: >a store where I bought a new palm Pilot and started to write
: >: >the astrology program "Delphi", which I published about half
: >: >a year later. I remember that while driving home from the
: >: >store on the freeway, I knew that the sun had just entered
: >: >Aries and noticed that people started to drive a bit more
: >: >agressively...
: >:
: >: Perhaps a Mars hour had also begun. :-)
: >
: >
: >I have checked what day the seminar was:
: >
: > Saturday 18 March 2000
: > Liz Greene, Zurich: Jupiter: Con Artist or Giver of Gifts?
: > -- http://www.astro.com/people/greene_sem00_e.htm
: >
: >That morning, the sun was still at 28 Pisces, so my memory
: >must have been wrong. Maybe that observation on the freeway
: >was two days later (but the sun entered Aries already at
: >about 8 AM then, i.e. too early for me to have been driving
: >in the direction I remember), or even another year...
: >
: >Maybe in 2001: Sun into Aries Tuesday, 20 March at 1:56 PM,
: >sunrise (sun at AC) at 06:34 AM, so the second Mars hour at
: >1:34 PM might have been correlated with that ???
:
: It would be easy to find out - all we need are the geographical
: coordinates. Sounds about right, though, since at the vernal
: equinox (for the northern hemisphere) the hours are about equally
: divided throughout the day and night.
:
: >: >I guess Jupiter in contrast to Saturn is not so much bound
: >: >in structures, rather tries to break out of them, to find a
: >: >way out, a new way of doing things, also a bit like the
: >: >archer (<=> Sagittarius) that I mentioned recently:
: >: >
: >: >
: >: >: I like the association with the ninth house. Reminds me also
: >: >: of a sculpture in Miami that I once saw: An archer crouching
: >: >: in the middle of a little bridge, protecting a woman and a
: >: >: child with his body and aiming with his bow and arrow straight
: >: >: up vertically into the sky.
: >: >
: >: >I also remember that someone who was my boss and a Sagittarius
: >: >had something pinned to his wall at work that said "If what you
: >: >are doing has no effect, do something else".
: >: >
: >: >Regarding "our international friends - the ones who aren't
: >: >running away to form their own groups -", don't worry, at least
: >: >not in my case :). A German newsgroup is not what my heart
: >: >beats for - as a Swiss (and I can probably speak for most of
: >: >my fellow Swiss), the USA is emotionally much closer than our
: >: >immediate northern neighbour. Swiss culture is much less based
: >: >on the "word" in spoken language than German culture. When
: >: >Swiss speak in their own language and among themselves, a lot
: >: >is more implicit, "unspoken", in intonation, and a more direct
: >: >bond between each other.
: >:
: >: That's interesting. I was under the impression (mistakenly?)
: >: that the Swiss spoke either German, Italian, or French, depending
: >: upon the region closest to each of those countries?
: >
: >Yes, that's basically true (there is also a fourth language
: >that a small group speaks, a roman language similar to Italian
: >and French). My native tongue is basically a German dialect.
: >People from the very south of Germany can understand me when
: >I speak in my native tongue. There is a big cultural difference,
: >though, in the way language is used between most parts of
: >Switzerland and most parts of Germany. German culture can in
: >my impression be much more be mapped to eloquent sentences and
: >is thus in many respects directly visible in written language,
: >while in "Swiss" a lot more is lost in my impression by simply
: >transcribing the spoken words. (There are also practically no
: >books in Swiss dialects, almost all Swiss literature is in
: >"high German".) I hope that clarifies things a little bit.
:
: Yes, thanks. Language interests me, because a given language can
: reflect so much about the culture of the population who speak it.
: (Much like a chart of a nation, or group, etc.) I remember a
: conversation I had with a former business associate who was
: natively from Iran. She told me that in her native language,
: there was no word for a particular thing (I forgot what) - not an
: item, but a word for a particular state of being. I thought that
: was fascinating and, at the time, gave me an insight into that
: culture I otherwise never would have had.
:
: (And I guess I no longer have that insight, since I forgot what
: the word was - but I know, at least, that language has a great
: deal to do with describing a culture.)


I remember from a Russian language course that I would sometimes
watch on Austrian TV when I was a kid, that in Russian the word
for "red" also means "beautiful", like in "Red Square". I am not
sure if that came with communism, but I suspect the roots might
be older...

: >: >You know, about two months ago, someone offered me to write
: >: >an article for a British journal related to psychological
: >: >astrology, about my model of the star signs that I recently
: >: >posted here and is on my web site and which I mentioned in
: >: >past several times here. In the end I declined, not really
: >: >for any conscious rational reasons, because they would have
: >: >spoken for doing it, but because it did not feel right.
: >: >
: >: >Instead, I guess I chose the "more sagittarian way" of just
: >: >letting the article rest at my web site and publishing it
: >: >also here. I guess I do not fit in with a journal that does
: >: >in some way remain within its fated roots (Liz Greene's
: >: >The Astrology of Fate, and the people who adhere to that in
: >: >a way that does not surpass certain limits). Has certainly
: >: >also something to do with Cancer, where I have 3 planets,
: >: >Jupiter, Mars, Venus, conjunct, in that order, and where the
: >: >sun of the USA is. A sort of irrational (water), almost
: >: >lunatic (moon) of doing things not in the immediately and
: >: >rationally expected way...
: >:
: >: I just looked at your Google profile. It is impressive, and you
: >: are very handsome! I'm going to look at your chart.
: >
: >
: >Thanks!
:
: :-) I did look at your chart. It's excellent for writing.


Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. Took me a long time to get
to be able to write relatively fluidly, though. In school, I
usually had great trouble to write a composition in time. Then
for a long time, I was mainly good at expressing things minimally
and precisely, like in scientific publications - I guess that
evolution would most likely be related to the Mer-Sat trine...

: >: Probably unlike you, I am extremely rooted in determinism now
: >: (and since the past several years). I recently made a new
: >: discovery, concerning astrology and numbers, which would provide
: >: a new way of predicting good and bad years in an earthly entity's
: >: existence. The problem is that an astrologer would have to be
: >: able to judge the condition of the luminaries and planets in the
: >: classical way, and those who practice modern astrology (the
: >: majority, still) would be unable to do that.
: >
: >
: >I think as a scientist I also have a very precise and
: >deterministic side, maybe expressed by the close trine
: >between Mercury at the AC and Saturn. (I guess Saturn-
: >Mercury aspects are not uncommon for scientists).
:
: Yes, I agree. What is the source of your birth time? Family
: record? Hospital record?


Birth certificate. The source of the time must be from
the hospital in which I was born. That should in general
make it about as reliable as it can normally get. During
that time in Switzerland, hospital personal would almost
certainly have been Swiss and typically quite concerned
to do things right, if only for the sole reason of doing
things right and with precision.

No second independent confirmation of the birth time, and
I did unfortunately not yet carry a watch then...

: >I imagine one part of how my mind works often a bit like
: >this: The conjunction of Venus-Mars-Jupiter in Cancer in
: >the 12th produces many ideas, which are then already tested
: >by Neptune/s.node in Scorpio at a close trine and also via
: >less close trine to Saturn at the end of Pisces, to make it
: >out to spoken/written word via close trine to Mercury at the
: >end of the 12th and in early Leo conjunct the AC. (Mercury
: >is otherwise not really aspected by anything in my chart,
: >just semisquares to Ura-Plu, if you count these.)
: >
: >What I like about traditional methods in astrology is that
: >they are specific; they could be tested experimentally and
: >would allow to be verified or falsified with much more
: >certainty than most modern concepts.
:
: Yes, they follow rules and formulae.
:
: >: At the moment, I have abandoned the idea of presenting what I've
: >: discovered.
: >
: >I would like to hear about it when the time is right.
:
: It seems to me that many of us are better off without it,
: especially as we age. The worry and/or apprehension is not
: healthy for anyone who is strongly rooted in determinism. I feel
: it would do more harm than good. We could say that about many
: things in astrology, though.
:
: >When I first published my ideas in 2002, I would have
: >never thought that it would take 7 years(!) until about
: >two people would to say "hey, there might be something
: >to this". Maybe I am just to impatient... :(
:
: :-)
:
: >(So far nobody is saying, "hey this is the maybe one
: >of the greatest discoveries in astrology of the 21st
: >century", as I personally would like to hear ;), but
: >maybe in seven more years or so... :)
:
: :-)
:
: >Or maybe it is just Uranus in Pisces that makes current
: >times a bit "medieval" in the sense that people do not
: >so much want to know how things "work" analytically like
: >it was with Galileo and the Church etc. in the past. In
: >that sense, "uranian spring" might be only something like
: >1-2 years away, but I have a very lousy track records
: >with regard to predictions... (Maybe I should really take
: >a heart and take a deeper look into traditional methods.)
:
: Understanding a chart in great depth usually results in more
: accurate prediction. Don't feel bad - it took me over 10 years
: before I was able to do even slightly well with prediction, and
: that was when I was still using only modern methods of chart
: reading. I did improve, still using modern methods, but now my
: way of seeing a chart is much different from the modern eye. It
: took me a very long time (over 25 years?) to learn how extremely
: intricate any given chart is with classical methodology[1],
: because I had been so rooted in modern-mainstream astrology.
:
: [1] Not that I am an expert now, by any means! There is so much
: to learn, it is humbling.

I know what you mean. On the other hand, if I look back in
history, I am almost always happy that people like Galileo
in the end eventually decided to make their discoveries public,
despite the ambivalent and hence partially even harmful effect
on the world views of their contemporaries. Then again, who
knows what discoveries have been made in the course of time
and have never been made public ?

A fate like Aristarchos of Samos is maybe in a way ideal in
this respect: He correctly realized that the earth is circling
the sun, but was ignored in his time, in favor of a geocentric
world view that fits much better with the principle of "as
above so below", because the planets move more interestingly
(different speeds, sometimes retrograde), whereas in a
heliocentric model those movements are rather dull and hence
would seem to reflect events down on earth less likely.

Thanks a lot for the replies :)

)o+

[[e-mail]]

On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 03:44:09 -0600, Hermes
[quite a lot snipped for brevity, not for rudeness]

Post by Hermes
: :-) I did look at your chart. It's excellent for writing.
Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. Took me a long time to get
to be able to write relatively fluidly, though. In school, I
usually had great trouble to write a composition in time. Then
for a long time, I was mainly good at expressing things minimally
and precisely, like in scientific publications - I guess that
evolution would most likely be related to the Mer-Sat trine...

I think, in part, if I remember correctly, you would have been in
your Saturn Firdaria for much of that time. So, the minimalism
of Saturn would have been more prominent.

Now, I think you have a way of writing much like I have. Not in
terms of style or content, but in terms of the actual process of
writing allowing thoughts to become much more fluid via use of
the hands - whether writing in a notebook, or typing on a
computer (for me, I think best when I'm writing with pen and
paper).

You and I both share an Rx Mercury, and an Rx Saturn, which I
find interesting, but my Mercury and Saturn are not in aspect.

Writing requires both Mercury and the Moon - which is why (for
chart reasons) you and I seem both to unfold our thoughts better
during the writing process. I notice that your writing has a
very associative quality, which I attribute to your
multi-aspected Moon. To speak even more modernly for a moment,
it is in a yod with Pluto and Neptune - I see so much of that in
your writing. It is a sort of free-associative flow which pulls
in quite a lot of hidden essence.

This is why I, like so many, find your writing quite fascinating,
even when I don't fully agree with the content.

Post by Hermes
: >: Probably unlike you, I am extremely rooted in determinism now
: >: (and since the past several years). I recently made a new
: >: discovery, concerning astrology and numbers, which would provide
: >: a new way of predicting good and bad years in an earthly entity's
: >: existence. The problem is that an astrologer would have to be
: >: able to judge the condition of the luminaries and planets in the
: >: classical way, and those who practice modern astrology (the
: >: majority, still) would be unable to do that.
: >
: >
: >I think as a scientist I also have a very precise and
: >deterministic side, maybe expressed by the close trine
: >between Mercury at the AC and Saturn. (I guess Saturn-
: >Mercury aspects are not uncommon for scientists).
: Yes, I agree. What is the source of your birth time? Family
: record? Hospital record?
Birth certificate. The source of the time must be from
the hospital in which I was born. That should in general
make it about as reliable as it can normally get. During
that time in Switzerland, hospital personal would almost
certainly have been Swiss and typically quite concerned
to do things right, if only for the sole reason of doing
things right and with precision.

Excellent!

Post by Hermes
No second independent confirmation of the birth time, and
I did unfortunately not yet carry a watch then...

:-)))

Post by Hermes
: >I imagine one part of how my mind works often a bit like
: >this: The conjunction of Venus-Mars-Jupiter in Cancer in
: >the 12th produces many ideas, which are then already tested
: >by Neptune/s.node in Scorpio at a close trine and also via
: >less close trine to Saturn at the end of Pisces, to make it
: >out to spoken/written word via close trine to Mercury at the
: >end of the 12th and in early Leo conjunct the AC. (Mercury
: >is otherwise not really aspected by anything in my chart,
: >just semisquares to Ura-Plu, if you count these.)
: >
: >What I like about traditional methods in astrology is that
: >they are specific; they could be tested experimentally and
: >would allow to be verified or falsified with much more
: >certainty than most modern concepts.
: Yes, they follow rules and formulae.
: >: At the moment, I have abandoned the idea of presenting what I've
: >: discovered.
: >
: >I would like to hear about it when the time is right.
: It seems to me that many of us are better off without it,
: especially as we age. The worry and/or apprehension is not
: healthy for anyone who is strongly rooted in determinism. I feel
: it would do more harm than good. We could say that about many
: things in astrology, though.
: >When I first published my ideas in 2002, I would have
: >never thought that it would take 7 years(!) until about
: >two people would to say "hey, there might be something
: >to this". Maybe I am just to impatient... :(
: :-)
: >(So far nobody is saying, "hey this is the maybe one
: >of the greatest discoveries in astrology of the 21st
: >century", as I personally would like to hear ;), but
: >maybe in seven more years or so... :)
: :-)
: >Or maybe it is just Uranus in Pisces that makes current
: >times a bit "medieval" in the sense that people do not
: >so much want to know how things "work" analytically like
: >it was with Galileo and the Church etc. in the past. In
: >that sense, "uranian spring" might be only something like
: >1-2 years away, but I have a very lousy track records
: >with regard to predictions... (Maybe I should really take
: >a heart and take a deeper look into traditional methods.)
: Understanding a chart in great depth usually results in more
: accurate prediction. Don't feel bad - it took me over 10 years
: before I was able to do even slightly well with prediction, and
: that was when I was still using only modern methods of chart
: reading. I did improve, still using modern methods, but now my
: way of seeing a chart is much different from the modern eye. It
: took me a very long time (over 25 years?) to learn how extremely
: intricate any given chart is with classical methodology[1],
: because I had been so rooted in modern-mainstream astrology.
: [1] Not that I am an expert now, by any means! There is so much
: to learn, it is humbling.
I know what you mean. On the other hand, if I look back in
history, I am almost always happy that people like Galileo
in the end eventually decided to make their discoveries public,
despite the ambivalent and hence partially even harmful effect
on the world views of their contemporaries. Then again, who
knows what discoveries have been made in the course of time
and have never been made public ?

Probably a treasure trove. My heart aches, too, for the burnt
Library of Alexandria.

Post by Hermes
A fate like Aristarchos of Samos is maybe in a way ideal in
this respect: He correctly realized that the earth is circling
the sun, but was ignored in his time, in favor of a geocentric
world view that fits much better with the principle of "as
above so below", because the planets move more interestingly
(different speeds, sometimes retrograde), whereas in a
heliocentric model those movements are rather dull and hence
would seem to reflect events down on earth less likely.

I like that. :-)

Post by Hermes
Thanks a lot for the replies :)

Thank you, too. :-)

Post by Hermes
)o+

[Hermes]

***@twixtntween.com wrote

: On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 03:44:09 -0600, Hermes
: <***@bluewin.ch> wrote:
: >***@twixtntween.com wrote:
:
: [quite a lot snipped for brevity, not for rudeness]
:
: >: :-) I did look at your chart. It's excellent for writing.
:
: >Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. Took me a long time to get
: >to be able to write relatively fluidly, though. In school, I
: >usually had great trouble to write a composition in time. Then
: >for a long time, I was mainly good at expressing things minimally
: >and precisely, like in scientific publications - I guess that
: >evolution would most likely be related to the Mer-Sat trine...
:
: I think, in part, if I remember correctly, you would have been in
: your Saturn Firdaria for much of that time. So, the minimalism
: of Saturn would have been more prominent.
:
: Now, I think you have a way of writing much like I have. Not in
: terms of style or content, but in terms of the actual process of
: writing allowing thoughts to become much more fluid via use of
: the hands - whether writing in a notebook, or typing on a
: computer (for me, I think best when I'm writing with pen and
: paper).
:
: You and I both share an Rx Mercury, and an Rx Saturn, which I
: find interesting, but my Mercury and Saturn are not in aspect.
:
: Writing requires both Mercury and the Moon - which is why (for
: chart reasons) you and I seem both to unfold our thoughts better
: during the writing process. I notice that your writing has a
: very associative quality, which I attribute to your
: multi-aspected Moon. To speak even more modernly for a moment,
: it is in a yod with Pluto and Neptune - I see so much of that in
: your writing. It is a sort of free-associative flow which pulls
: in quite a lot of hidden essence.
:
: This is why I, like so many, find your writing quite fascinating,
: even when I don't fully agree with the content.

Thanks a lot :)

Yes, school was during my Saturn Firdaria. Also interesting
to see that I am now in my s.node Firdaria until my next
birthday in August 2010. So, I guess if I survive until then
(I had some health problems lately, but they might turn out
to be less severe than they appeared at first - knocking on
wood), things might become a little easier with ten years
of sun Firdaria coming afterwards...

Reminds me also of something I read in Chuang Tzu (Taoist
Chinese philosopher/book) yesterday or the day before, about
a king who had lost a "magic pearl" and tried to find it by
first sending "cognition", then "sharp eye", then "thinking"
to find it, but only after he sent "forgetfulness of self",
he found it again. (I have translated these terms as directly
as possible from Richard Wilhelm's tranlation from Chinese
to German, which is in some aspects still unique.)

German astrologer Thomas Ring related the nodes in astrology
to things coming up into consciousness and sinking back to
unconsciousness (sun and moon), so maybe "forgetfulness of
self" might be a good approach (at least in a modern view)
for s.node Firdaria ? Or maybe something like that...

Actually, after looking it up, Thomas Ring apparently put it
just the opposite way:

http://www.astro.com/ring/THRSem74/Grundkursus/GK23.htm

Google's automatic translation to English:
http://translate.google.com/translate?ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro.com%2Fring%2FTHRSem74%2FGrundkursus%2FGK23.htm&sl=de&tl=en

Then again, in the same seminar he said that Kepler introduced
the quincunx to astrology, when he probably meant the quintile,
so maybe he inadvertedly swapped things here, too, something I
guess Sagittarians seem to do often (often with great luck) ?

Loading Image...

Thanks again,

)o+

[snipped rest of quoted post, also just for brevity]

--
PS: I mentioned Jung's "red book" recently. According to
Jung's own account, the "beginning of the end" of writing
this book privately came in 1928 when he came into contact
with the work of Richard Wilhelm.

[A B]

Post by Hermes
: On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 03:44:09 -0600, Hermes
: [quite a lot snipped for brevity, not for rudeness]
: >: :-) I did look at your chart. It's excellent for writing.
: >Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. Took me a long time to get
: >to be able to write relatively fluidly, though. In school, I
: >usually had great trouble to write a composition in time. Then
: >for a long time, I was mainly good at expressing things minimally
: >and precisely, like in scientific publications - I guess that
: >evolution would most likely be related to the Mer-Sat trine...

That's me down to the ground, and I've got that trine, too. My Mercury is
on the IC, as against Hermes' on the ASC. It isn't Rx, but Saturn is.

Post by Hermes
: I think, in part, if I remember correctly, you would have been in
: your Saturn Firdaria for much of that time. So, the minimalism
: of Saturn would have been more prominent.
: Now, I think you have a way of writing much like I have. Not in
: terms of style or content, but in terms of the actual process of
: writing allowing thoughts to become much more fluid via use of
: the hands - whether writing in a notebook, or typing on a
: computer (for me, I think best when I'm writing with pen and
: paper).

Again, same here. I think, anyway. I'm afraid I know doodly-squit about
Firdaria - I must look them up.

Post by Hermes
: You and I both share an Rx Mercury, and an Rx Saturn, which I
: find interesting, but my Mercury and Saturn are not in aspect.
: Writing requires both Mercury and the Moon - which is why (for
: chart reasons) you and I seem both to unfold our thoughts better
: during the writing process. I notice that your writing has a
: very associative quality, which I attribute to your
: multi-aspected Moon. To speak even more modernly for a moment,
: it is in a yod with Pluto and Neptune - I see so much of that in
: your writing. It is a sort of free-associative flow which pulls
: in quite a lot of hidden essence.
: This is why I, like so many, find your writing quite fascinating,
: even when I don't fully agree with the content.
Thanks a lot :)
Yes, school was during my Saturn Firdaria. Also interesting
to see that I am now in my s.node Firdaria until my next
birthday in August 2010. So, I guess if I survive until then
(I had some health problems lately, but they might turn out
to be less severe than they appeared at first - knocking on
wood), things might become a little easier with ten years
of sun Firdaria coming afterwards...
Reminds me also of something I read in Chuang Tzu (Taoist
Chinese philosopher/book) yesterday or the day before, about
a king who had lost a "magic pearl" and tried to find it by
first sending "cognition", then "sharp eye", then "thinking"
to find it, but only after he sent "forgetfulness of self",
he found it again. (I have translated these terms as directly
as possible from Richard Wilhelm's tranlation from Chinese
to German, which is in some aspects still unique.)
German astrologer Thomas Ring related the nodes in astrology
to things coming up into consciousness and sinking back to
unconsciousness (sun and moon), so maybe "forgetfulness of
self" might be a good approach (at least in a modern view)
for s.node Firdaria ? Or maybe something like that...
Actually, after looking it up, Thomas Ring apparently put it
http://www.astro.com/ring/THRSem74/Grundkursus/GK23.htm
http://translate.google.com/translate?ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro.com%2Fring%2FTHRSem74%2FGrundkursus%2FGK23.htm&sl=de&tl=en
Then again, in the same seminar he said that Kepler introduced
the quincunx to astrology, when he probably meant the quintile,
so maybe he inadvertedly swapped things here, too, something I
guess Sagittarians seem to do often (often with great luck) ?
http://www.astro.com/im/ring_chart.gif
Thanks again,
)o+
[snipped rest of quoted post, also just for brevity]
--
PS: I mentioned Jung's "red book" recently. According to
Jung's own account, the "beginning of the end" of writing
this book privately came in 1928 when he came into contact
with the work of Richard Wilhelm.

[[e-mail]]

On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 10:47:07 -0600, Hermes

Post by Hermes
: On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 03:44:09 -0600, Hermes
: [quite a lot snipped for brevity, not for rudeness]
: >: :-) I did look at your chart. It's excellent for writing.
: >Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. Took me a long time to get
: >to be able to write relatively fluidly, though. In school, I
: >usually had great trouble to write a composition in time. Then
: >for a long time, I was mainly good at expressing things minimally
: >and precisely, like in scientific publications - I guess that
: >evolution would most likely be related to the Mer-Sat trine...
: I think, in part, if I remember correctly, you would have been in
: your Saturn Firdaria for much of that time. So, the minimalism
: of Saturn would have been more prominent.
: Now, I think you have a way of writing much like I have. Not in
: terms of style or content, but in terms of the actual process of
: writing allowing thoughts to become much more fluid via use of
: the hands - whether writing in a notebook, or typing on a
: computer (for me, I think best when I'm writing with pen and
: paper).
: You and I both share an Rx Mercury, and an Rx Saturn, which I
: find interesting, but my Mercury and Saturn are not in aspect.
: Writing requires both Mercury and the Moon - which is why (for
: chart reasons) you and I seem both to unfold our thoughts better
: during the writing process. I notice that your writing has a
: very associative quality, which I attribute to your
: multi-aspected Moon. To speak even more modernly for a moment,
: it is in a yod with Pluto and Neptune - I see so much of that in
: your writing. It is a sort of free-associative flow which pulls
: in quite a lot of hidden essence.

I forgot to mention Uranus conjunct Pluto at the closest angle to
the yod's apex, which is quite a major factor to forget! (But I
have been suffereing from sleep deprivation, among other things.)
So, this also describes the revolutionary nature of many of your
concepts.

Post by Hermes
: This is why I, like so many, find your writing quite fascinating,
: even when I don't fully agree with the content.
Thanks a lot :)

You are welcome!

Post by Hermes
Yes, school was during my Saturn Firdaria. Also interesting
to see that I am now in my s.node Firdaria until my next
birthday in August 2010. So, I guess if I survive until then
(I had some health problems lately, but they might turn out
to be less severe than they appeared at first - knocking on
wood),

I certainly hope so.

Post by Hermes
things might become a little easier with ten years
of sun Firdaria coming afterwards...

I certainly hope so! I would think so.

Post by Hermes
Reminds me also of something I read in Chuang Tzu (Taoist
Chinese philosopher/book) yesterday or the day before, about
a king who had lost a "magic pearl" and tried to find it by
first sending "cognition", then "sharp eye", then "thinking"
to find it, but only after he sent "forgetfulness of self",
he found it again. (I have translated these terms as directly
as possible from Richard Wilhelm's tranlation from Chinese
to German, which is in some aspects still unique.)
German astrologer Thomas Ring related the nodes in astrology
to things coming up into consciousness and sinking back to
unconsciousness (sun and moon), so maybe "forgetfulness of
self" might be a good approach (at least in a modern view)
for s.node Firdaria ? Or maybe something like that...
Actually, after looking it up, Thomas Ring apparently put it
http://www.astro.com/ring/THRSem74/Grundkursus/GK23.htm
http://translate.google.com/translate?ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro.com%2Fring%2FTHRSem74%2FGrundkursus%2FGK23.htm&sl=de&tl=en

Thanks!

Post by Hermes
Then again, in the same seminar he said that Kepler introduced
the quincunx to astrology, when he probably meant the quintile,
so maybe he inadvertedly swapped things here, too, something I
guess Sagittarians seem to do often (often with great luck) ?

No, I also remember reading, from a different source, that it was
Kepler who introduced the quincunx.

Post by Hermes
http://www.astro.com/im/ring_chart.gif
Thanks again,
)o+
[snipped rest of quoted post, also just for brevity]

[Hermes]

***@twixtntween.com wrote:

: I forgot to mention Uranus conjunct Pluto at the closest angle to
: the yod's apex, which is quite a major factor to forget! (But I
: have been suffereing from sleep deprivation, among other things.)
: So, this also describes the revolutionary nature of many of your
: concepts.

I feel this goes a lot deeper than it might appear at first.
The "loss of Pluto" - no matter to what degree that might
actually be the case in retrospect - is not unlikely "the
theme" in astrology and the world of these times.

What has been in the 20th century clearly identifiable
generations, bound and protected by some common purpose
or goal, may now (really or just as a felt fear) be
experienced by many as a great loss and desorientation
with respect to how to approach/handle life itself.

Then again, Pluto in Capricorn would also be seen in
that way, in the destruction of structures and then
(at least in my general interpretation of Pluto) a
general drive in the generation born now with Pluto
in Capricorn to recreate (generate, hence the word
"generation" linked directly to Pluto) such lost
structures, or rather (hopefully) better ones...

I don't know what Pluto will do in the end.

)o+

--
But if the little fox, after nearly completing
the crossing gets his tail in the water, there
is nothing that would further. -- I Ching

[[e-mail]]

Post by Hermes
: I forgot to mention Uranus conjunct Pluto at the closest angle to
: the yod's apex, which is quite a major factor to forget! (But I
: have been suffereing from sleep deprivation, among other things.)
: So, this also describes the revolutionary nature of many of your
: concepts.
I feel this goes a lot deeper than it might appear at first.
The "loss of Pluto" - no matter to what degree that might
actually be the case in retrospect - is not unlikely "the
theme" in astrology and the world of these times.

Maybe, but I don't think Pluto has lost any influence in
Modern-Mainstream astrology. (Except in suggestible
perception...)

Post by Hermes
What has been in the 20th century clearly identifiable
generations, bound and protected by some common purpose
or goal, may now (really or just as a felt fear) be
experienced by many as a great loss and desorientation
with respect to how to approach/handle life itself.
Then again, Pluto in Capricorn would also be seen in
that way, in the destruction of structures and then
(at least in my general interpretation of Pluto) a
general drive in the generation born now with Pluto
in Capricorn to recreate (generate, hence the word
"generation" linked directly to Pluto) such lost
structures, or rather (hopefully) better ones...

How is the word "generation" directly related to Pluto?

I'd think it pretty likely that the Western world will only
continue its drift towards Plutocracy (while paying the
obligatory lip-service to Democracy, which I don't think we
really ever had, at all).

In my experience, I have seen generational influences having to
do with Pluto's quick swing through several signs in my lifetime
(which led to an interesting side discussion at a conference,
having to do with those of us alive during this rapid Pluto
period being a main influence for good or ill concerning the
future of civilization, and the health of the planet), but I have
never seen Pluto in any *re*generative capacity (at least in
nativities), except for the fact that it remains in orbit
(continuing its *influence* on generations), rather than drifting
out of the solar system.

Until it does drift out of orbit altogether, it will remain an
influence (much like a fixed star, only a dark/hidden one),
whether we wish to ignore it or not, based on the mood/decision
of a group of astronomers.

Pluto is a decimator. Whereas Saturn denotes death, Pluto
denotes complete decimation, and *not*
reconstruction/regeneration.

Post by Hermes
I don't know what Pluto will do in the end.

The same thing it has always done, whether we see "it coming" or
not, unless it drifts out of orbit. :-)

William Lilly, who was brilliant, and wrote his magnum opus after
only seven years of study and practice, and who was also an
innovator, had Sun in Taurus. He didn't know it, but his Sun was
conjunct Uranus.

Thanks for your reply.

Post by Hermes
)o+

[CFA]

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
How is the word "generation" directly related to Pluto?

As in 'generation of life'.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
I'd think it pretty likely that the Western world will only
continue its drift towards Plutocracy (while paying the
obligatory lip-service to Democracy, which I don't think we
really ever had, at all).

And people call me negative.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Pluto is a decimator. Whereas Saturn denotes death, Pluto
denotes complete decimation, and *not*
reconstruction/regeneration.

To me, Pluto represents the connection between the end of physical
life and the beginning (to complete the circle, since energy is never
lost), as well as things like alchemy, so-called magic, etc.

Ken

[Hermes]

CFA wrote:
: ***@twixtntween.com wrote:
: >How is the word "generation" directly related to Pluto?
:
: As in 'generation of life'.
:
: >I'd think it pretty likely that the Western world will only
: >continue its drift towards Plutocracy (while paying the
: >obligatory lip-service to Democracy, which I don't think we
: >really ever had, at all).
:
: And people call me negative.
:
: >Pluto is a decimator. Whereas Saturn denotes death, Pluto
: >denotes complete decimation, and *not*
: >reconstruction/regeneration.
:
: To me, Pluto represents the connection between the end of physical
: life and the beginning (to complete the circle, since energy is
never
: lost), as well as things like alchemy, so-called magic, etc.

Yes, in my view the "energy" or "hope" is quite naturally
transferred to the new generation: When Pluto sweeps through
a sign and purges/destroys some things at that time, all the
people born during that time and growing up during that time
experience the loss and develop a hope/wish/drive to be in a
world in which there would be more of what they are feeling
they are losing and is missing and so when they grow up, will
put a lot of heart and energy into (re-)creating in a better
and hopefully more sustainable way.

I guess modern astrologers typically count all "collective"
planets (Uranus, Neptune, Pluto) as shaping a generation,
see e.g.

Liz Greene, The Generation Gap
(originally written for "Appollon" magazine)
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_conflict_e.htm

but to me Pluto is prominent, exactly because in order to
_generate_, first something has to be _destroyed_, at least
in a cyclic view of the world where things cannot grow ad
infinitum. I guess Uranus (and likely also Neptune) differ
there with Pluto (and with Saturn).

)o+

[[e-mail]]

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
How is the word "generation" directly related to Pluto?

As in 'generation of life'.

This is an oblique reply. "Gerneration of life" could refer to
the reproductive process (which Pluto has no part in), or to a
subset of the population which The Who referred to in the song,
"My Generation".

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
I'd think it pretty likely that the Western world will only
continue its drift towards Plutocracy (while paying the
obligatory lip-service to Democracy, which I don't think we
really ever had, at all).

And people call me negative.

I'm only ever realistic...

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Pluto is a decimator. Whereas Saturn denotes death, Pluto
denotes complete decimation, and *not*
reconstruction/regeneration.

To me, Pluto represents the connection between the end of physical
life and the beginning (to complete the circle, since energy is never
lost),

Nah... Once the soul exits the vessel, I don't think it is bound
to astrological influences anymore. They are designed as an
earth experience construct. When the soul reincarnates, that
will be Saturn also, due to Chaldean order, and the obvious
confines of another body, and the *gravity* of the earth
experience. Saturn has general rulership of both earth-death,
and earth-birth. Between death and birth, we are truly free.

Post by CFA
as well as things like alchemy, so-called magic, etc.

I'd give those to Mercury and Saturn (and unofficially the 8th)
and 12th house).

Post by CFA
Ken

[[e-mail]]

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
as well as things like alchemy, so-called magic, etc.

I'd give those to Mercury and Saturn (and unofficially the 8th)
and 12th house).

To be more clear, witchcraft is given to the 12th house, so we
can extrapolate that any form of ritual magic would be given to
the 12th house. The unofficial part is my own feeling that the
8th can also be involved.

Alchemy was a scientific pursuit, much as astrology was and, as
science, is given to Saturn (and Mercury).

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
Ken

[A B]

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
To be more clear, witchcraft is given to the 12th house, so we
can extrapolate that any form of ritual magic would be given to
the 12th house. The unofficial part is my own feeling that the
8th can also be involved.

Who says that? Is that Lilly or someone like that? (I've never read
"Christian Astrology". I'd like to, but e-books always give me a headache).

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Alchemy was a scientific pursuit, much as astrology was and, as
science, is given to Saturn (and Mercury).

Sure, and it's also highly structured, depending on supposed "laws of
creation" - everything classified into elements, astrological rulerships,
immutable cycles. Again, Saturn for structure, or Mercury for
understanding.

[[e-mail]]

Post by A B

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
To be more clear, witchcraft is given to the 12th house, so we
can extrapolate that any form of ritual magic would be given to
the 12th house. The unofficial part is my own feeling that the
8th can also be involved.

Who says that? Is that Lilly or someone like that? (I've never read
"Christian Astrology". I'd like to, but e-books always give me a headache).

Yes, it's Lilly, and most others before him (I've never read a
source which said differently). I have a hard copy which I
bought before Lilly (and so much else) was put online. Much
easier to read hard copies. Do they even have book 2 online?
They didn't used to. They might, by now.

If you have a printer, you can make your own hard copies.

Post by A B

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Alchemy was a scientific pursuit, much as astrology was and, as
science, is given to Saturn (and Mercury).

Sure, and it's also highly structured, depending on supposed "laws of
creation" - everything classified into elements, astrological rulerships,
immutable cycles. Again, Saturn for structure, or Mercury for
understanding.

Astrology, "The Art" as it is called by Lilly and others, is
ruled by Saturn. Don't forget that Saturn exalts in Libra - the
sign of the arts. Even though astrology was a science to the
astronomers, it has always been an art, also.

[CFA]

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
How is the word "generation" directly related to Pluto?

As in 'generation of life'.

This is an oblique reply. "Gerneration of life" could refer to
the reproductive process (which Pluto has no part in), or to a

Though it rules the sign (and chakra- 1st) that does.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
subset of the population which The Who referred to in the song,
"My Generation".

then call it 'creation'. I found references to Pluto associated with
the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd chakras, depending on the author. All of them
make some sense, but the first two make the most sense to me.

Pluto is about the raw life urge and the ability to generate life, as
well as all the destructive associations.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
I'd think it pretty likely that the Western world will only
continue its drift towards Plutocracy (while paying the
obligatory lip-service to Democracy, which I don't think we
really ever had, at all).

And people call me negative.

I'm only ever realistic...

Then be idealistic once in a while :-)

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Pluto is a decimator. Whereas Saturn denotes death, Pluto
denotes complete decimation, and *not*
reconstruction/regeneration.

To me, Pluto represents the connection between the end of physical
life and the beginning (to complete the circle, since energy is never
lost),

Nah... Once the soul exits the vessel, I don't think it is bound
to astrological influences anymore. They are designed as an
earth experience construct. When the soul reincarnates, that
will be Saturn also, due to Chaldean order, and the obvious
confines of another body, and the *gravity* of the earth
experience. Saturn has general rulership of both earth-death,
and earth-birth.

I guess you just chuck out the three outer planets entirely now?

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Between death and birth, we are truly free.

Not so much, from what I hear. We are still bound by soul purpose(s),
etc.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
as well as things like alchemy, so-called magic, etc.

I'd give those to Mercury and Saturn (and unofficially the 8th)
and 12th house).

Too small to represent those things. Saturn is the gatekeeper to
transpersonal power(s), but it isn't that power. And Mercury is just
the bridge between inner and outer existence, or maybe even just the
communication link. It's certainly not anything approaching the force
of Pluto, for instance.

Ken

[[e-mail]]

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
How is the word "generation" directly related to Pluto?

As in 'generation of life'.

This is an oblique reply. "Gerneration of life" could refer to
the reproductive process (which Pluto has no part in), or to a

Though it rules the sign (and chakra- 1st) that does.

If you consider, still, that Pluto rules Scorpio, our argument is
already at an impasse. Again.

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
subset of the population which The Who referred to in the song,
"My Generation".

then call it 'creation'. I found references to Pluto associated with
the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd chakras, depending on the author. All of them
make some sense, but the first two make the most sense to me.

It might be a matter of mass confusion.

Post by CFA
Pluto is about the raw life urge and the ability to generate life,

Er, that would be Mars, actually.

Post by CFA
as
well as all the destructive associations.

Destructive, yes. In the sense of leaving gaping wounds in the
soul. The old platitude, "Time heals all wounds" does not apply
when Pluto does destruction.

Neither does the one I hate most: "What doesn't kill me makes me
stronger." Tell *that* to a loving parent whose child has been
killed.

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
I'd think it pretty likely that the Western world will only
continue its drift towards Plutocracy (while paying the
obligatory lip-service to Democracy, which I don't think we
really ever had, at all).

And people call me negative.

I'm only ever realistic...

Then be idealistic once in a while :-)

Oh, I was! Idealism is a luxury of youth.

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Pluto is a decimator. Whereas Saturn denotes death, Pluto
denotes complete decimation, and *not*
reconstruction/regeneration.

To me, Pluto represents the connection between the end of physical
life and the beginning (to complete the circle, since energy is never
lost),

Nah... Once the soul exits the vessel, I don't think it is bound
to astrological influences anymore. They are designed as an
earth experience construct. When the soul reincarnates, that
will be Saturn also, due to Chaldean order, and the obvious
confines of another body, and the *gravity* of the earth
experience. Saturn has general rulership of both earth-death,
and earth-birth.

I guess you just chuck out the three outer planets entirely now?

No, not entirely. I still see their significance in close
aspects in charts, as a sort of shorthand. But I do not use them
as sign rulers (and haven't for at least 9 or 10 years).

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Between death and birth, we are truly free.

Not so much, from what I hear. We are still bound by soul purpose(s),
etc.

We may understand we still have work to do but, from the
standpoint of astrological influences, the discarnate soul is
free, and *does* have free will. Unfortunately, we use it to
send ourselves back here, dutifully, to try to clean up the
messes we made in other incarnations, only to find that we end up
making even more.

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
as well as things like alchemy, so-called magic, etc.

I'd give those to Mercury and Saturn (and unofficially the 8th)
and 12th house).

Too small to represent those things.

?! Too *small*?

Two planets and two houses?!?!

Post by CFA
Saturn is the gatekeeper to
transpersonal power(s), but it isn't that power.

Saturn has rulership of science and discipline.

Post by CFA
And Mercury is just
the bridge between inner and outer existence, or maybe even just the
communication link. It's certainly not anything approaching the force
of Pluto, for instance.

If one were to add Pluto to the mix we'd end up with the means to
destroy the world... hey! That happened!

Post by CFA
Ken

[CFA]

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
How is the word "generation" directly related to Pluto?

As in 'generation of life'.

This is an oblique reply. "Gerneration of life" could refer to
the reproductive process (which Pluto has no part in), or to a

Though it rules the sign (and chakra- 1st) that does.

If you consider, still, that Pluto rules Scorpio, our argument is
already at an impasse. Again.

It does :-) We are :-) Are you even doing tropical geocentric any
more? ;-)

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
subset of the population which The Who referred to in the song,
"My Generation".

then call it 'creation'. I found references to Pluto associated with
the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd chakras, depending on the author. All of them
make some sense, but the first two make the most sense to me.

It might be a matter of mass confusion.

Post by CFA
Pluto is about the raw life urge and the ability to generate life,

Er, that would be Mars, actually.

Doesn't hold a candle to good ol' Pluto.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
as
well as all the destructive associations.

Destructive, yes. In the sense of leaving gaping wounds in the
soul. The old platitude, "Time heals all wounds" does not apply
when Pluto does destruction.

That must be a painful world to live in, where there's no chance for
redemption.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Neither does the one I hate most: "What doesn't kill me makes me
stronger." Tell *that* to a loving parent whose child has been
killed.

I wouldn't want to, but the statement holds.

Aside from all that, you seem to be saying the planets (and I guess by
association, the signs) don't have a balance of positive and negative
(or positive and challenging) potentials. What's the source for that?

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
I'd think it pretty likely that the Western world will only
continue its drift towards Plutocracy (while paying the
obligatory lip-service to Democracy, which I don't think we
really ever had, at all).

And people call me negative.

I'm only ever realistic...

Then be idealistic once in a while :-)

Oh, I was! Idealism is a luxury of youth.

Wouldn't want an exclusive diet of it, but wouldn't want to do without
it, either.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Pluto is a decimator. Whereas Saturn denotes death, Pluto
denotes complete decimation, and *not*
reconstruction/regeneration.

To me, Pluto represents the connection between the end of physical
life and the beginning (to complete the circle, since energy is never
lost),

Nah... Once the soul exits the vessel, I don't think it is bound
to astrological influences anymore. They are designed as an
earth experience construct. When the soul reincarnates, that
will be Saturn also, due to Chaldean order, and the obvious
confines of another body, and the *gravity* of the earth
experience. Saturn has general rulership of both earth-death,
and earth-birth.

I guess you just chuck out the three outer planets entirely now?

No, not entirely. I still see their significance in close
aspects in charts, as a sort of shorthand. But I do not use them
as sign rulers (and haven't for at least 9 or 10 years).

Oh, I think you've pretty much let them go, when you can say Mars
represents life urge exclusively.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Between death and birth, we are truly free.

Not so much, from what I hear. We are still bound by soul purpose(s),
etc.

We may understand we still have work to do but, from the
standpoint of astrological influences, the discarnate soul is
free, and *does* have free will. Unfortunately, we use it to
send ourselves back here, dutifully, to try to clean up the
messes we made in other incarnations, only to find that we end up
making even more.

I think you made that up.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
as well as things like alchemy, so-called magic, etc.

I'd give those to Mercury and Saturn (and unofficially the 8th)
and 12th house).

Too small to represent those things.

?! Too *small*?
Two planets and two houses?!?!

Definitely those two planets don't hold the force of raw life urge.
Everything about Saturn is constriction, order, and justification.

Life itself wants no bounds, doesn't need a reason, and is sloppy as
hell- opposite of Saturn.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
Saturn is the gatekeeper to
transpersonal power(s), but it isn't that power.

Saturn has rulership of science and discipline.

Precisely: those are not transpersonal powers. Science is the
definition and categorization of natural phenomena, but it is not
those phenomena. I already talked about discipline (order,
constriction, etc).

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
And Mercury is just
the bridge between inner and outer existence, or maybe even just the
communication link. It's certainly not anything approaching the force
of Pluto, for instance.

If one were to add Pluto to the mix we'd end up with the means to
destroy the world... hey! That happened!

And regenerate a new one.

Ken

[[e-mail]]

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
If you consider, still, that Pluto rules Scorpio, our argument is
already at an impasse. Again.

It does :-) We are :-) Are you even doing tropical geocentric any
more? ;-)

Yes. Are you?

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
subset of the population which The Who referred to in the song,
"My Generation".

then call it 'creation'. I found references to Pluto associated with
the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd chakras, depending on the author. All of them
make some sense, but the first two make the most sense to me.

It might be a matter of mass confusion.

Post by CFA
Pluto is about the raw life urge and the ability to generate life,

Er, that would be Mars, actually.

Doesn't hold a candle to good ol' Pluto.

<shaking head sadly> Kenneth, Mars rules the Water Triplicity.

Post by CFA
From where did life on earth originate?

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
as
well as all the destructive associations.

Destructive, yes. In the sense of leaving gaping wounds in the
soul. The old platitude, "Time heals all wounds" does not apply
when Pluto does destruction.

That must be a painful world to live in, where there's no chance for
redemption.

There is a chance for redemption. Both between incarnations, and
in other ones.

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Neither does the one I hate most: "What doesn't kill me makes me
stronger." Tell *that* to a loving parent whose child has been
killed.

I wouldn't want to, but the statement holds.

Maybe you just haven't ever experienced trauma to the 1000th
power.

Post by CFA
Aside from all that, you seem to be saying the planets (and I guess by
association, the signs) don't have a balance of positive and negative
(or positive and challenging) potentials.

Where did you get that?

Post by CFA
What's the source for that?

Your imagination?

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Pluto is a decimator. Whereas Saturn denotes death, Pluto
denotes complete decimation, and *not*
reconstruction/regeneration.

To me, Pluto represents the connection between the end of physical
life and the beginning (to complete the circle, since energy is never
lost),

Nah... Once the soul exits the vessel, I don't think it is bound
to astrological influences anymore. They are designed as an
earth experience construct. When the soul reincarnates, that
will be Saturn also, due to Chaldean order, and the obvious
confines of another body, and the *gravity* of the earth
experience. Saturn has general rulership of both earth-death,
and earth-birth.

I guess you just chuck out the three outer planets entirely now?

No, not entirely. I still see their significance in close
aspects in charts, as a sort of shorthand. But I do not use them
as sign rulers (and haven't for at least 9 or 10 years).

Oh, I think you've pretty much let them go, when you can say Mars
represents life urge exclusively.

No, I see their significance. It is just that I do not see Pluto
having anything to do with life urge, and I do see it as the
realm of Mars. Fight or flight, the survival instinct, these are
also Mars.

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Between death and birth, we are truly free.

Not so much, from what I hear. We are still bound by soul purpose(s),
etc.

We may understand we still have work to do but, from the
standpoint of astrological influences, the discarnate soul is
free, and *does* have free will. Unfortunately, we use it to
send ourselves back here, dutifully, to try to clean up the
messes we made in other incarnations, only to find that we end up
making even more.

I think you made that up.

It is part of my metaphysical belief system. Someone makes them
up. That's how we got all of our world religions. Just because
I made up part of my own doesn't mean it's any less worthy of
your tolerance. Let me know when you'd like to convert; I'll
write you a manifesto. :-)

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
as well as things like alchemy, so-called magic, etc.

I'd give those to Mercury and Saturn (and unofficially the 8th)
and 12th house).

Too small to represent those things.

?! Too *small*?
Two planets and two houses?!?!

Definitely those two planets don't hold the force of raw life urge.
Everything about Saturn is constriction, order, and justification.

We were speaking about "so-called magic", and alchemy, remember?
Saturn is about science and even the arts (see my reply to A.B.).
Mercury is the messenger. Mercury even rules angels...

Post by CFA
Life itself wants no bounds, doesn't need a reason, and is sloppy as
hell- opposite of Saturn.

Well, that's Mars again, isn't it? Can you imagine Mars at your
dinner table, spilling gravy everywhere, and elbowing everyone in
the way? *Sloppy*. "Wants no bounds." "Doesn't need a reason."
Did you ever yell at anyone for no (apparent) reason at all? Who
hasn't?

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
Saturn is the gatekeeper to
transpersonal power(s), but it isn't that power.

Saturn has rulership of science and discipline.

Precisely: those are not transpersonal powers. Science is the
definition and categorization of natural phenomena, but it is not
those phenomena. I already talked about discipline (order,
constriction, etc).

Mercury brings the concepts to Saturn from beyond the confines of
consciousness. Mercury gives to Saturn what Saturn needs, to
focus on magic, alchemy, and science.

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
And Mercury is just
the bridge between inner and outer existence, or maybe even just the
communication link. It's certainly not anything approaching the force
of Pluto, for instance.

If one were to add Pluto to the mix we'd end up with the means to
destroy the world... hey! That happened!

And regenerate a new one.

Well, we haven't quite entirely destroyed this one yet. We only
have the means to. I'd say we'll cross that bridge when we come
to it, except that there won't be a bridge to cross.

"Regenerate." That *has nothing to do with Pluto*.

Post by CFA
Ken

[CFA]

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
The old platitude, "Time heals all wounds" does not apply
when Pluto does destruction.

That must be a painful world to live in, where there's no chance for
redemption.

There is a chance for redemption. Both between incarnations, and
in other ones.

Seems like a conflict in your two statements.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Neither does the one I hate most: "What doesn't kill me makes me
stronger." Tell *that* to a loving parent whose child has been
killed.

I wouldn't want to, but the statement holds.

Maybe you just haven't ever experienced trauma to the 1000th
power.

Yeah, I've had my share, and it still doesn't change the truth in the
statement you quoted.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Between death and birth, we are truly free.

Not so much, from what I hear. We are still bound by soul purpose(s),
etc.

We may understand we still have work to do but, from the
standpoint of astrological influences, the discarnate soul is
free, and *does* have free will. Unfortunately, we use it to
send ourselves back here, dutifully, to try to clean up the
messes we made in other incarnations, only to find that we end up
making even more.

I think you made that up.

It is part of my metaphysical belief system. Someone makes them
up. That's how we got all of our world religions. Just because
I made up part of my own doesn't mean it's any less worthy of
your tolerance. Let me know when you'd like to convert; I'll
write you a manifesto. :-)

Oh, I know you could. Yes, I confess to what looks like intolerance
when it appears to me another more-or-less sentient being keeps
arguing for their own slow-motion suicide.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
as well as things like alchemy, so-called magic, etc.

I'd give those to Mercury and Saturn (and unofficially the 8th)
and 12th house).

Too small to represent those things.

?! Too *small*?
Two planets and two houses?!?!

Definitely those two planets don't hold the force of raw life urge.
Everything about Saturn is constriction, order, and justification.

We were speaking about "so-called magic", and alchemy, remember?

Yes.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Saturn is about science and even the arts (see my reply to A.B.).
Mercury is the messenger. Mercury even rules angels...

Those two planets *aren't* the power itself. They only organize and
communicate the power.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
Saturn is the gatekeeper to
transpersonal power(s), but it isn't that power.

Saturn has rulership of science and discipline.

Precisely: those are not transpersonal powers. Science is the
definition and categorization of natural phenomena, but it is not
those phenomena. I already talked about discipline (order,
constriction, etc).

Mercury brings the concepts to Saturn from beyond the confines of
consciousness. Mercury gives to Saturn what Saturn needs, to
focus on magic, alchemy, and science.

And those two planets still aren't the power itself.

Ken

[[e-mail]]

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
The old platitude, "Time heals all wounds" does not apply
when Pluto does destruction.

That must be a painful world to live in, where there's no chance for
redemption.

There is a chance for redemption. Both between incarnations, and
in other ones.

Seems like a conflict in your two statements.

Nope.

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Neither does the one I hate most: "What doesn't kill me makes me
stronger." Tell *that* to a loving parent whose child has been
killed.

I wouldn't want to, but the statement holds.

Maybe you just haven't ever experienced trauma to the 1000th
power.

Yeah, I've had my share, and it still doesn't change the truth in the
statement you quoted.

There is no truth in that statement, unless it applies to just
losing a job and having to learn new job skills to get a new one.

But if you are a fan of Nietzche, please give me an example more
dire than the one I just offered.

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Between death and birth, we are truly free.

Not so much, from what I hear. We are still bound by soul purpose(s),
etc.

We may understand we still have work to do but, from the
standpoint of astrological influences, the discarnate soul is
free, and *does* have free will. Unfortunately, we use it to
send ourselves back here, dutifully, to try to clean up the
messes we made in other incarnations, only to find that we end up
making even more.

I think you made that up.

It is part of my metaphysical belief system. Someone makes them
up. That's how we got all of our world religions. Just because
I made up part of my own doesn't mean it's any less worthy of
your tolerance. Let me know when you'd like to convert; I'll
write you a manifesto. :-)

Oh, I know you could. Yes, I confess to what looks like intolerance
when it appears to me another more-or-less sentient being keeps
arguing for their own slow-motion suicide.

Excuse me? I don't get your full meaning here, and it sounds
like it's probably an off-charter insult.

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
as well as things like alchemy, so-called magic, etc.

I'd give those to Mercury and Saturn (and unofficially the 8th)
and 12th house).

Too small to represent those things.

?! Too *small*?
Two planets and two houses?!?!

Definitely those two planets don't hold the force of raw life urge.
Everything about Saturn is constriction, order, and justification.

We were speaking about "so-called magic", and alchemy, remember?

Yes.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Saturn is about science and even the arts (see my reply to A.B.).
Mercury is the messenger. Mercury even rules angels...

Those two planets *aren't* the power itself. They only organize and
communicate the power.

The power comes from within, and the urge to do anything at all
is the province of Mars. An individual practicing any form of
science, magic, or alchemy would probably have a very strong
emphasis on the 12th and 8th houses, and a strong Saturn and
Mercury.

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
Saturn is the gatekeeper to
transpersonal power(s), but it isn't that power.

Saturn has rulership of science and discipline.

Precisely: those are not transpersonal powers. Science is the
definition and categorization of natural phenomena, but it is not
those phenomena. I already talked about discipline (order,
constriction, etc).

Mercury brings the concepts to Saturn from beyond the confines of
consciousness. Mercury gives to Saturn what Saturn needs, to
focus on magic, alchemy, and science.

And those two planets still aren't the power itself.

See above. There is just no reason for either of us to try to
communicate with each other. You will never understand my point
of view, and I do not care for yours.

Post by CFA
Ken

[Hermes]

I wrote:
: I don't know what Pluto will do in the end.

I still subscribe to that, things seem to be very much at flux and not
settled...

)o+

PS: Creation/destruction of life was if I am not mistaken in
traditional
views the matter of sun/moon vs. Saturn (and their ruled signs to some
degree, I guess), with Saturn arguably responsible for life's time
span.