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Post by RickyPost by Ray Murphy----------
On 1/1/04 11:31 PM, in article
Post by RickySince I'm learning astrology, I'm fairly interested in exploring each
planet
Post by Rickyindividually to see how each has an affect, and then learning their
interactions with eachother. My personal Saturn always seemed a demon to
me, though I never really gave it much thought (or the fact that it
sits on
Post by Ray MurphyPost by Rickymy descendant in retrograde). I always thought most of these issues came
from some other planets.
It is very difficult to analyze just one planet outside the context of the
entire chart.
RM: An immense number of astrological factors do actually have
generally accepted meanings, and we have a lot of confidence in some
of those meanings and little confidence in others, but I don't see it
as "difficult" to pass on what we either know from experience or what
we can quote from books.
Perhaps, but general means general, ie, not specific. Let me correct my
statement to say "It is very difficult to give a deeply specific analysis to
only one chart factor."
RM: Its actually impossible, because astrology or astrologers cannot
predict anything at all with certainty.
We are only ever dealing with symbols and a vast array of meanings
which have been attributed to them. This of course means that the safe
way to go is to give fuzzy answers OR alternatively, specific answers
which are meant ~only~ as a guide.
We can of course "predict" when certain astronomical situations arise
- and therefore when certain astrological "effects" are more likely to
be felt or observed - such as in transits or natal charts, but
ultimately we are only ever *guessing* what manifestations will occur
in a natal chart or a transit. This "guessing" is of course improved
markedly if we know more about a person or their chart.
Post by RickyIn this case, the OP said he has issues with financial security. While
Taurus can account for some of this tendency, this matter does not really
have anything to do with the 7th house/Desc.
RM: I didn't see that. I thought it was just a general question about
Saturn on the Descendant.
Post by RickyIf I were unable to see the
entire chart, I would ask next about the 2nd/8th--are there any planets
there? What are the house rulers? Is Saturn making any aspects to either
the 2nd/8th planets or house rulers? Is there any reception between Saturn
the 2nd/8th planets or house rulers? Etc. In other words, how is it 7th and
2nd/8th are apparently connected?
Post by Ray MurphyThis has reminded me of the general aversion of some astrologers
towards discussing a Sun sign "without looking at the rest of the
chart" and yet at the same time the same astrologers will swear by an
aspect in isolation. We need to be consistent with this, and if we
need to use very broad terms to describe _anything_ in isolation,
then we should do it rather than avoid it.
I'm one of those that looks at the chart holistically. Any tendency toward
isolation would be to look more closely at a specific part--but still seen
within the greater context.
RM: Yes we all tend to do that in one way or another, and a lot of the
thought processes by the astrologer depend upon what s/he already
knows from study or experience. This explains why some astrologers can
be astonishingly accurate with some parts of readings - because they
focus upon a bunch of factors which they know a lot about. The
interesting thing about this is - most of us don't know how good we
are when doing it.
Here's an example - when I see Mars in Sagittarius in a natal chart, I
don't think in terms of "Mars = action" and "Jupiter = Excess" or any
other possible description. I immediately think "Burns candle at both
ends". That's my "image" for MA in SG.
If I then see say Sun in Aries, I'm starting to get a picture of a
fairly active individual and *group* those two factors together
temporarily. If I then notice that the Sun is conjunct Saturn, I
loosen the tie between SU in AR and MA in SG. etc etc.
If I see Mars in Aquarius I see nothing (Ive gotta get a bloody book
out) because after all these years I still have no "instant image" for
that chart factor. This slows down some readings and I can lose
momentum if I cannot join a series of my own "personal images" (or
symbols).
In my own case I don't give any chart factor an "instant image" or
symbol until I've found a fairly reliable one, because it can detract
from a reading.
In the case under discussion - Saturn on the Descendant - my instant
image is *always* a serious / diligent person, but of course that is
modified by other factors in the chart, but it would take a LOT to
mask it. Perhaps something like Mercury conjunct Jupiter conjunct
Ascendant in Gemini would wipe it out altogether, and if that ~was~
the case, there's no way I would be emphasising the serious / diligent
potential in such a reading.
Post by RickyPost by Ray MurphyHaving said that, in a general sense, Saturn is not always devilish
RM: I'm not convinced that ~any~ placement or transit is "difficult or
devilish"; in fact I think the astrological lore which claims that
they can be, actually prevents us from seeing the positive things and
conversely (with wonderful transits) we fail to see the down side.
It seems to me that Tropical astrology still has another major shift
to make -- at least as big as the one which took it out of the
fortune-telling category in the last several decades.
I do think we are mostly the ones who are accountable for any difficulty.
Rob Hand (Planets in Transit) states that holding onto what is no longer
useful confounds us.
RM: Interesting - especially if we apply it to astrology.
It's also interesting that he is the main reason Tropical astrology is
not still in the dark ages, although there would be a string of people
who helped him get where is and spread the word.
Post by RickyHe treats the Saturn cycle in a way that reminds me of
the Moon's phases--where the return is the new moon, the 1st square is the
first quarter, the opposition is "full", etc. According to this book, we
have opportunities to reassess rather than be victims to negative or
restrictive influences outside ourselves.
You know I sometimes wonder what would happen if someone like Rob Hand
posted on this newsgroup. Would we challenge the odd sentence and try
to improve it, or would we let it stand? Personally I'm still looking
for *one* sentence in his books which I disagree with - but I must
admit that I hope I never find one now :-))
Post by RickyCheers,
Dianne
Ray