The Magi Zodiac7 Chart - new tool from Magi's

[~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~]

Traditional Astrology fails miserably and is totally lost in trying to
understand Adolf Hitler, who was "killer of the century," they say
about his placements:
"According to Traditional Astrology, a person with Libra rising enjoys peace
and harmony. Traditional Astrology also tells us that a person with a
conjunction
of Moon and Jupiter is tolerant and forgiving, compassionate and
sympathetic,
especially if this conjunction is in Cancer, the sign that rules the home
and the
protective mother instinct.. "
The Zodiac7 chart explains the souls of people, presumably.

http://www.magiastrology.com/zodiac7.htm

[~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~]

I guess I have potential for great evil:P I have Sedna in my Heliocentric
chart in a yod to Mars and Neptune, and square Mercury.

Veronica

[mamy]

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
I guess I have potential for great evil:P I have Sedna in my Heliocentric
chart in a yod to Mars and Neptune, and square Mercury.
Veronica

New; may be good if it promotes the already existing information, but
a total discrediting of the traditional here I must intervene;
especially when the traditional interpretation is given in a childlike
and misinformed way, and here the evil in you is your best informer.

[A B]

And what's all this about Grand Trines, T-squares and other patterns not
featuring in traditional astrology? I've been using them for years and
that's the first I've heard of it. Who are these Magi anyway?
There IS something funny about Libra Rising. It rarely seems to work at all
as you would expect - at least if you're taking Libra as meaning only
refined and charming. I've often noticed this myself, and the Parkers
remark on it in at least one of their books. The Magi don't seem to have
heard of this, so they assume the obvious interpretation is conventionally
used and take its inaccuracy as evidence against traditional astrology.
But I'll keep an eye on this new "Zodiac7one" aspect - or septile, as Kepler
called it :-)
A. B.

[~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~]

Post by A B
And what's all this about Grand Trines, T-squares and other patterns not
featuring in traditional astrology? I've been using them for years and
that's the first I've heard of it. Who are these Magi anyway?

The Magis take up the very first astrology that had empirically shown
to be correct, the astrology of today has deviated from that. They utilize
the configurations as more explanatory of relations and people than
traditional astrology does. They claim it is more significant than sign
placements, ASC, and everything else. It's debatable of course.

Post by A B
There IS something funny about Libra Rising. It rarely seems to work at
all as you would expect - at least if you're taking Libra as meaning only
refined and charming. I've often noticed this myself, and the Parkers
remark on it in at least one of their books. The Magi don't seem to have
heard of this, so they assume the obvious interpretation is conventionally
used and take its inaccuracy as evidence against traditional astrology.
But I'll keep an eye on this new "Zodiac7one" aspect - or septile, as
Kepler called it :-)

Something funny about Libra rising cannot exactly explain such a phenomenon
as Hitler, even though it is typical to point to someone extreme, but it's
also
necessary to figure him out somehow astrologically. And I think they do, as
well as show the mechanisms between him and Himmler, and the situational
chart of the time. It all comes together, and I expect nothing less than
just
that from the astrology I want to deal with. But still keep ut the critical
eye,of course.

The septile chart, yes, I find it interesting. Took a look onto my guy and
now
I see why we're the way we are even more clearly.

By the way, there's a good program to find the configurations, one can
even put in custom angles. It's Configuration Hunter. Find it, download it:)

Veronica

Post by A B
A. B.

[don hindenach]

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Traditional Astrology fails miserably and is totally lost in trying to
understand Adolf Hitler <snippy!>

Godwin's Rule!!!!!!

[~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~]

On Fri, 8 May 2009 12:37:23 UTC, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Traditional Astrology fails miserably and is totally lost in trying to
understand Adolf Hitler <snippy!>

Godwin's Rule!!!!!!

Heh, doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss the Killer of the Century:P

Veronica

--
-donh-
donh at audiosys dot com

[don hindenach]

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~

On Fri, 8 May 2009 12:37:23 UTC, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Traditional Astrology fails miserably and is totally lost in trying to
understand Adolf Hitler <snippy!>

Godwin's Rule!!!!!!

Heh, doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss the Killer of the Century:P

Veronica,

As soon as one looks to aspect patterns and remembers to include quintiles, that
particular killer's setup is perfectly obvious. No need to create a whole new
astrological library wing to explain his sorry ass.

[~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~]

On Sun, 10 May 2009 16:42:46 UTC, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~

On Fri, 8 May 2009 12:37:23 UTC, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Traditional Astrology fails miserably and is totally lost in trying to
understand Adolf Hitler <snippy!>

Godwin's Rule!!!!!!

Heh, doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss the Killer of the Century:P

Veronica,
As soon as one looks to aspect patterns and remembers to include quintiles, that
particular killer's setup is perfectly obvious. No need to create a whole new
astrological library wing to explain his sorry ass.

It's not for his sorry ass only, if you want to ignore it you're welcome.
Quintiles.. so that's the shit huh?

Veronica

--
-donh-
donh at audiosys dot com

[don hindenach]

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~

On Sun, 10 May 2009 16:42:46 UTC, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~

On Fri, 8 May 2009 12:37:23 UTC, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Traditional Astrology fails miserably and is totally lost in trying to
understand Adolf Hitler <snippy!>

Godwin's Rule!!!!!!

Heh, doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss the Killer of the Century:P

Veronica,
As soon as one looks to aspect patterns and remembers to include quintiles, that
particular killer's setup is perfectly obvious. No need to create a whole new
astrological library wing to explain his sorry ass.

It's not for his sorry ass only, if you want to ignore it you're welcome.
Quintiles.. so that's the shit huh?
Veronica

It's at least the 5th harmonic of the shit! :-)

I just went looking and found this article.

http://chirotic.wordpress.com/2008/07/10/hitler-and-the-golden-yod/

Please also read the comments, as Rick Levine enters into a dialog with the
writer. I was actually searching on Rick's name, since he and I see eye-to-eye
on quintiles. We got there independently, but have very similar views.

I call Hitler's quintile formation a bowl, whereas the writer calles it a star
by including a point I have yet to appreciate. I read the killer's life as
yo-yoing from point to point when heavy planets wandered into the vacant star
point of his bowl. He burned himself (and wayyy too many of the rest of us)
trying to keep up the energy of the star when the transient heavy planet left
orb. (oh, shit! :-)

[~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~]

On Sun, 10 May 2009 21:57:11 UTC, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~

On Sun, 10 May 2009 16:42:46 UTC, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~

On Fri, 8 May 2009 12:37:23 UTC, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Traditional Astrology fails miserably and is totally lost in trying to
understand Adolf Hitler <snippy!>

Godwin's Rule!!!!!!

Heh, doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss the Killer of the Century:P

Veronica,
As soon as one looks to aspect patterns and remembers to include quintiles, that
particular killer's setup is perfectly obvious. No need to create a
whole
new
astrological library wing to explain his sorry ass.

It's not for his sorry ass only, if you want to ignore it you're welcome.
Quintiles.. so that's the shit huh?
Veronica

It's at least the 5th harmonic of the shit! :-)

;) The 5th and quintiles are the creativeness, the special gift
that someone has. Septiles are more esotheric, deeper into
the soul type probing aspects. I think that's why they tie
it up to ethical parts of your soul, not forgetting that free
will is still at play. They don't promote determinism, but
they have a highly explanatory form of astrology, showing
exactly what astrological processes affect people.

I just went looking and found this article.
http://chirotic.wordpress.com/2008/07/10/hitler-and-the-golden-yod/
Please also read the comments, as Rick Levine enters into a dialog with the
writer. I was actually searching on Rick's name, since he and I see eye-to-eye
on quintiles. We got there independently, but have very similar views.

Gosh yes, that is the pentagram, what a creative warlock (!) Hitler was.
I will dwelve into the comments.

I call Hitler's quintile formation a bowl, whereas the writer calles it a star
by including a point I have yet to appreciate. I read the killer's life as
yo-yoing from point to point when heavy planets wandered into the vacant star
point of his bowl. He burned himself (and wayyy too many of the rest of us)
trying to keep up the energy of the star when the transient heavy planet left
orb. (oh, shit! :-)

Yep. Maybe if you check Himmler, he had a planet filling Hitlers vacant
piece of the puzzle. Only the Magis see how others can fill our missing
links
and make a million more things happen in our lives because of it. That
is why it's cool and interesting. Another person, thing, place, or
electional
date can make all the difference. This is why.

--
-donh-
donh at audiosys dot com

Veronica

[a***@yahoo.com]

orb.  (oh, shit! :-)
--
 -donh-
donh at audiosys dot com

There is more



he also had a powerful 5th and 10th harmonic configurations involving
Eris

using only 1 degree orb, extending only 10 minutes of arc over for
completing
aspect configurations.

Moon biquintile Saturn - '49
Moon biquintile Neptune - '12
Saturn quintile Neptune - '36
Moon quintile Eris - '24
Neptune quintile Eris - '11
Mercury decile Neptune - '49
Mercury decile Eris -'37
Moon tridecile Mercury - 1'02
Mercury tredecile Saturn - '12


The configuration indicate that he had the creativity to put his
idealism,ideology into concrete reality that manifested in making
victims of
minorities. feelings,thoughts of idealistic bigotry.

also Adolf Hitler was an aspiring artist,but he failed to get into art
school.
It was said that he was actually very good with architectural art, and
that he
even considered that could be his path. He couldn't go to
architectural school
because he never finished high school. The configuration can easily
fit with his
architectural potential.

Roy MacKinnon listed power abuse of minorities under one of his Eris
keywords. That fits
with Hitler who caused the death of many Jews,Gypsies,and even people
that he
thought were mentally deficient. I think that he killed a lot of
homosexuals
too.

notice that he has Moon oppose Saturn/Neptune midpoint

In COSI, one of it's interpretations was low character.
I strongly believe Ebertin wrote that interpretation because of
Hitler.

I also believe that configuration fits with the health problems and
loss of his
mother as well as his own health problems. Of course, his Moon
conjunct Chiron
indicates emotional wounds,pain involving the mother. He was a bit of
a mama's
boy.

The configuration can also indicate possibility of mental illness.
One of Ruth Brummond's interpretations for Moon-Saturn-Neptune is
manic
depression.

I also read that Hitler didn't drink alcoholic beverages,and I also
believe that
fits with that aspect.



his Midheaven/Imum Coeli axis in 4'10 Leo/Aquarius squares the
heliocentric Eris
nodal axis in 4'26 Taurus/Scorpio which also fits with collective
karma that
involves power abuse of minorities,diversity matters,and ideology

His Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels was born on October 29th
(same
birthday as me), and so his Sun conjunct the heliocentric South Eris
Node.


I noticed that Hitler's cubewano dwarf planet candidate Varuna is in
4'25 Aquarius closely conjunct his Imum
Coeli in 4'10 Aquarius. Having one of those big kuiper belt
objects conjunct the Imum Coeli could indicate
traumatic,dysfunctional,abusive
domestic environment.

of course he has the heliocentric dwarf planet plutoid Eris nodes
square that



when I think of Varuna, I think of judge,jury,and executioner
with the Eris Nodes involve......judge,jury,executioner of minorities

Varuna is named after the Indian god who was once supreme god but
demoted to god of the waters..
he is depicted with a noose, and he is said to judge the souls after
death

He has plutino dwarf planet candidate Orcus semisquare his Moon-
Jupiter conjunction with 51 and 45 minutes of
arc respectively too.
the emotions seem very intense with that one. not sure what else to
think.
could fit with the death of his mother strongly affecting him

In Right Ascension, he has dwarf planet plutoid, MakeMake square
Midheaven with 29 minutes of arc and
trine Moon with 10 minutes of arc

In Right Ascension,he has cubewano dwarf planet candidate Quaoar
square Mercury with 1'13 orb and Ascendant with
1'47

In Right Ascension, he has dwarf planet plutoid, Haumea semisquare Sun
with 18 minutes of arc. With
large kuiper belt object in hard aspect to his Sun,this could fit with
trauma,abuse involving
He has Sun conjunct dwarf planet plutoid, MakeMake with 1'07 orb which
could indicate possible trauma,abuse involving the father

In Right Ascension,he has dwarf planet plutoid Eris trine Midheaven
with 45 minutes of arc

In Right Ascension, he has dwarf planet candidate Sedna square Moon
with 1'01 orb
I can't help thinking that indicate feelings of victimization, but
also fits
with being a mama's boy but also victimizing women in his
relationships.



Adolf Hitler has all this strong kuiper belt energy, but we
astrologers seem to
attribute all this to Pluto in the past..especially with it being in
the 8th
house.

The Right Ascension Eris trine Midheaven and the Eris Nodes square
Midheaven
show a strong theme of using power to abuse minorities. The Eris trine
Midheaven
seems like the ease that he had in doing it.



Other astrologers and I are discussing Hitler's chart in Centaurs2
yahoo astrology group. What a synchronicity.


I am very interested in being a 21st Century Astrologer
I feel that the discovery of the big kuiper belt objects, starting
with Varuna in 2000
with the discovery of Eris in 2005 redefining astronomical planetary
boundaries

I agree with Philip Sedgwick that kuiper belt objects (that includes
Pluto) are intensified evolutionary objects.
People strong in kuiper belt energy could have intensified
evolutionary lessons.

I am very strong in kuiper belt energy myself, and Pluto is not much
of factor......it's mainly Ixion,Varuna,Sedna,Quaoar,Haumea,Orcus,and
Eris. I have Sun conjunct Heliocentric South Eris Node with 10
minutes of arc, and so strong collective Eris energy........I think
that I do have strong karma involving diversity......that's why I
incarnated as a multiracial,neurodivergent male that doesn't fit male
stereotypes that enable me to sympathize with gay rights and women's
rights. My life purpose is to be a neurodiversity advocate.

I want to be like the Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. of neurodiversity.
he and I share Moon in Pisces and unaspected Uranus dispositing a
personal planet in Aquarius. for him, it's Mercury. for me, it's
Mars.

I have a dream that neurodivergents will be accepted and tolerated in
society and won't be seen as disordered and needing to be fixed with
medication,etc. Different doesn't mean deficient.



Raymond

[CFA]

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Traditional Astrology fails miserably and is totally lost in trying to
understand Adolf Hitler, who was "killer of the century," they say
"According to Traditional Astrology, a person with Libra rising enjoys peace
and harmony. Traditional Astrology also tells us that a person with a
conjunction
of Moon and Jupiter is tolerant and forgiving, compassionate and
sympathetic,
especially if this conjunction is in Cancer, the sign that rules the home
and the
protective mother instinct.. "
The Zodiac7 chart explains the souls of people, presumably.
http://www.magiastrology.com/zodiac7.htm

They also say "Many Traditional Astrologers tell us that the
Venus/Mars conjunction is indicative of a person with a great need to
give and receive affection from others", conveniently omitting the
square from Saturn. That alone is a pretty strong challenge to, uh,
let's say a "cheerful nature" Color me skeptical.

Ken

[~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~]

Post by CFA

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Traditional Astrology fails miserably and is totally lost in trying to
understand Adolf Hitler, who was "killer of the century," they say
"According to Traditional Astrology, a person with Libra rising enjoys peace
and harmony. Traditional Astrology also tells us that a person with a
conjunction
of Moon and Jupiter is tolerant and forgiving, compassionate and
sympathetic,
especially if this conjunction is in Cancer, the sign that rules the home
and the
protective mother instinct.. "
The Zodiac7 chart explains the souls of people, presumably.
http://www.magiastrology.com/zodiac7.htm

They also say "Many Traditional Astrologers tell us that the
Venus/Mars conjunction is indicative of a person with a great need to
give and receive affection from others", conveniently omitting the
square from Saturn. That alone is a pretty strong challenge to, uh,
let's say a "cheerful nature" Color me skeptical.

That's why I don't swallow everything they say raw. But Mars and Venus
has to do with personal love life, and energy level (mars), and he sure had
that (martian energy). I'm not saying to toss out the traditional astrology.

Veronica

Post by CFA
Ken
--
cfa at alt dot net

[[e-mail]]

On Fri, 8 May 2009 07:37:23 -0500, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Traditional Astrology fails miserably and is totally lost in trying to
understand Adolf Hitler, who was "killer of the century," they say

Untrue. It's modern-mainstream astrology which is totally
lost...

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
"According to Traditional Astrology, a person with Libra rising enjoys peace
and harmony.

Wrong.

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Traditional Astrology also tells us that a person with a
conjunction
of Moon and Jupiter is tolerant and forgiving, compassionate and
sympathetic,
especially if this conjunction is in Cancer, the sign that rules the home
and the
protective mother instinct.. "

He was a zealot for "the fatherland" - Moon symbolizes the people
he considered "superior" (Jupiter).

His chart had a *lot* of major problems.

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
The Zodiac7 chart explains the souls of people, presumably.
http://www.magiastrology.com/zodiac7.htm

No one can do that who is presently incarnate... But we can
certainly judge a soul by the actions of its owner.

[[e-mail]]

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
On Fri, 8 May 2009 07:37:23 -0500, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Traditional Astrology fails miserably and is totally lost in trying to
understand Adolf Hitler, who was "killer of the century," they say

Untrue. It's modern-mainstream astrology which is totally
lost...

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
"According to Traditional Astrology, a person with Libra rising enjoys peace
and harmony.

Wrong.

To add, I think he had Venus conjunct Mars, squared by Saturn.
That is *not* a mellow, pleasant chart ruler.

Libra on its own, I find to be contrary and argumentative. Libra
will pick a fight and make it look as if you started it... (no
offense, any Librans).

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Traditional Astrology also tells us that a person with a
conjunction
of Moon and Jupiter is tolerant and forgiving, compassionate and
sympathetic,
especially if this conjunction is in Cancer, the sign that rules the home
and the
protective mother instinct.. "

He was a zealot for "the fatherland" - Moon symbolizes the people
he considered "superior" (Jupiter).
His chart had a *lot* of major problems.

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
The Zodiac7 chart explains the souls of people, presumably.
http://www.magiastrology.com/zodiac7.htm

No one can do that who is presently incarnate... But we can
certainly judge a soul by the actions of its owner.

[CFA]

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
On Fri, 8 May 2009 07:37:23 -0500, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Traditional Astrology fails miserably and is totally lost in trying to
understand Adolf Hitler, who was "killer of the century," they say

Untrue. It's modern-mainstream astrology which is totally
lost...

Totally?

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
"According to Traditional Astrology, a person with Libra rising enjoys peace
and harmony.

Wrong.

Always?

Ken

[[e-mail]]

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
On Fri, 8 May 2009 07:37:23 -0500, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Traditional Astrology fails miserably and is totally lost in trying to
understand Adolf Hitler, who was "killer of the century," they say

Untrue. It's modern-mainstream astrology which is totally
lost...

Totally?

Yes, in a way, because it encompasses too much free-form
interpretation. Free-form interpretation is a breakdown from the
astrology which was practiced for millennia, before the 20th
century.

Modern-Mainstream astrology relies more on individual
interpretation, which varies wildly from astrologer to
astrologer. (Which is one reason why tests based on
interpretation have always failed.)

IMHO, to use the outer planets as sign rulers is junk astrology.
I do not ignore the outers in a natal chart, but they only echo
what can already be seen by the astrology the 20th century
considered too difficult, and discarded until some astrological
heroes, starting in the early 1990s, began its long road to
rediscovery, and re-use, and reinstatement.

Everything seemed to speed up in the 20th century, didn't it?
Industry, inventions, short attention spans... In this context,
it isn't hard to see that teachers born in the late 19th cenury,
who should have known better, decided to become purveyors of a
sadly abbreviated, abridged astrology; then the 2nd and 3rd waves
decided, since they didn't know any better, to assign the outer
planets rulerships, to bring in asteroids, etc., ad infinitum,
because they never knew there was already a way of understanding
charts in terrible depth (because really knowing can be very
difficult) without all of that.

Not every method in modern-mainstream astrology is bad, but if
that is all one is working with, one is missing quite a lot, no
matter how many asteroids you toss in.

Just my opinion, and just based on what I continue to learn.

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
"According to Traditional Astrology, a person with Libra rising enjoys peace
and harmony.

Wrong.

Always?

Unless Venus (and Saturn) are in perfect condition, which has to
do with sign placements, house placements, degrees, receptions,
etc., which I've never seen to be the case, yes.

Post by CFA
Ken

[CFA]

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
On Fri, 8 May 2009 07:37:23 -0500, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Traditional Astrology fails miserably and is totally lost in trying to
understand Adolf Hitler, who was "killer of the century," they say

Untrue. It's modern-mainstream astrology which is totally
lost...

Totally?

Yes, in a way, because it encompasses too much free-form
interpretation. Free-form interpretation is a breakdown from the
astrology which was practiced for millennia, before the 20th
century.
Modern-Mainstream astrology relies more on individual
interpretation, which varies wildly from astrologer to
astrologer. (Which is one reason why tests based on
interpretation have always failed.)
IMHO, to use the outer planets as sign rulers is junk astrology.
I do not ignore the outers in a natal chart, but they only echo
what can already be seen by the astrology the 20th century
considered too difficult, and discarded until some astrological
heroes, starting in the early 1990s, began its long road to
rediscovery, and re-use, and reinstatement.
Everything seemed to speed up in the 20th century, didn't it?
Industry, inventions, short attention spans... In this context,
it isn't hard to see that teachers born in the late 19th cenury,
who should have known better, decided to become purveyors of a
sadly abbreviated, abridged astrology; then the 2nd and 3rd waves
decided, since they didn't know any better, to assign the outer
planets rulerships, to bring in asteroids, etc., ad infinitum,
because they never knew there was already a way of understanding
charts in terrible depth (because really knowing can be very
difficult) without all of that.
Not every method in modern-mainstream astrology is bad, but if
that is all one is working with, one is missing quite a lot, no
matter how many asteroids you toss in.

What is one missing to merely include the three outer planets? (By the
way, I've seen some, uh, indications the ancient Egyptians knew of
those planets.) I consider myself pretty conservative in some ways,
since I don't use Chiron, parallels/contraparallels, solstice points,
and a whole variety of other techniques.

But that's partly a result of my experience and my current use(s).
It's simply impossible to explore many of the subtler symbols in a 90
minute client reading, not to mention most people aren't looking for
that- they're looking for some feedback about how they got *here*,
what's just ahead, and what they can do about it.

Symptom of the times? I guess. Things speed(ed) up because people
become more aware. But we only have so much RAM for the minutia. Are
people worse off with an "abridged" form? Are we as astrologers
serving the request fully if we don't insist people know the full
story?

Nature has a way of handling those who ignore important signposts. I
don't believe we've lost the core of astrology- I believe people are
more self-empowered than they were a century or more ago, and less
invested in what something outside of them thinks they should be doing
or the way they should be living- IOW, more able to source their own
direction internally.

My own experience of modern astrology has been a continuing series of
revelations and valuable insights, for myself and for those whose
charts I've interpreted. So, "totally lost" seems pretty far off the
mark.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Just my opinion, and just based on what I continue to learn.

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
"According to Traditional Astrology, a person with Libra rising enjoys peace
and harmony.

Wrong.

Always?

Unless Venus (and Saturn) are in perfect condition, which has to
do with sign placements, house placements, degrees, receptions,
etc., which I've never seen to be the case, yes.

That strikes me as a pretty jaundiced view, not just of Libra, but of
all the signs. By extending your example, Cap rising people are always
cranky. And I know of at least one example where that simply isn't the
case :-)

Ken

[[e-mail]]

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
On Fri, 8 May 2009 07:37:23 -0500, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Traditional Astrology fails miserably and is totally lost in trying to
understand Adolf Hitler, who was "killer of the century," they say

Untrue. It's modern-mainstream astrology which is totally
lost...

Totally?

Yes, in a way, because it encompasses too much free-form
interpretation. Free-form interpretation is a breakdown from the
astrology which was practiced for millennia, before the 20th
century.
Modern-Mainstream astrology relies more on individual
interpretation, which varies wildly from astrologer to
astrologer. (Which is one reason why tests based on
interpretation have always failed.)
IMHO, to use the outer planets as sign rulers is junk astrology.
I do not ignore the outers in a natal chart, but they only echo
what can already be seen by the astrology the 20th century
considered too difficult, and discarded until some astrological
heroes, starting in the early 1990s, began its long road to
rediscovery, and re-use, and reinstatement.
Everything seemed to speed up in the 20th century, didn't it?
Industry, inventions, short attention spans... In this context,
it isn't hard to see that teachers born in the late 19th cenury,
who should have known better, decided to become purveyors of a
sadly abbreviated, abridged astrology; then the 2nd and 3rd waves
decided, since they didn't know any better, to assign the outer
planets rulerships, to bring in asteroids, etc., ad infinitum,
because they never knew there was already a way of understanding
charts in terrible depth (because really knowing can be very
difficult) without all of that.
Not every method in modern-mainstream astrology is bad, but if
that is all one is working with, one is missing quite a lot, no
matter how many asteroids you toss in.

What is one missing to merely include the three outer planets? (By the
way, I've seen some, uh, indications the ancient Egyptians knew of
those planets.) I consider myself pretty conservative in some ways,
since I don't use Chiron, parallels/contraparallels, solstice points,
and a whole variety of other techniques.

Ye Olde Astrology does use antiscia, and much, much more - so is
conservative really the term you'd choose?

Post by CFA
But that's partly a result of my experience and my current use(s).
It's simply impossible to explore many of the subtler symbols in a 90
minute client reading, not to mention most people aren't looking for
that- they're looking for some feedback about how they got *here*,
what's just ahead, and what they can do about it.

Yes...

Post by CFA
Symptom of the times? I guess. Things speed(ed) up because people
become more aware.

I can't agree on that point. Things such as technology (and
waste) speeded up, but the finer qualities of humanity are still
in the slow lane. As a whole, we have not advanced anywhere near
the pace of technology, which fools us into thinking we have.

There's more violence, evil, and suffering on Earth than ever
before - mainly because the planet is overloaded with more people
than it can support, and our technology has not advanced in the
direction of how to support that much human life without killing
Earth, mile after mile, daily.

The speed-up of technology may be attributed to our interstitial
introduction into the Age of Aquarius, which has to do with
science, invention, machinery, but which is sadly lacking in the
finer human qualities such as love and compassion. One might
only hope that the polar opposite qualities of Leo will be
incorporated more effectively than the qualities of Virgo have
been in the Age of Pisces. (On the other hand, who'd want the
qualities of Virgo - or Pisces, for that matter? JK)

Post by CFA
But we only have so much RAM for the minutia. Are
people worse off with an "abridged" form?

In many cases, I would say yes.

Post by CFA
Are we as astrologers
serving the request fully if we don't insist people know the full
story?

*We* should know the full story, but that doesn't mean we leave
anyone who seeks help without hope. The more we know and
understand, the better we can advise.

Post by CFA
Nature has a way of handling those who ignore important signposts.

? Darwin?

Post by CFA
I
don't believe we've lost the core of astrology- I believe people are
more self-empowered than they were a century or more ago, and less
invested in what something outside of them thinks they should be doing
or the way they should be living- IOW, more able to source their own
direction internally.

Again, I'd have to disagree.

Post by CFA
My own experience of modern astrology has been a continuing series of
revelations and valuable insights, for myself and for those whose
charts I've interpreted. So, "totally lost" seems pretty far off the
mark.

Astrology for me has also been a continuing series of
revelations, but never moreso than when I began learning how it
was done before the 17th century. And I'm no expert. It's a
huge study of many, many different voices who argued as
vehemently on points as we do, only they didn't have the internet
so they argued more slowly...

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Just my opinion, and just based on what I continue to learn.

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
"According to Traditional Astrology, a person with Libra rising enjoys peace
and harmony.

Wrong.

Always?

Unless Venus (and Saturn)

And the Ascendant, I forgot to add.

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
are in perfect condition, which has to
do with sign placements, house placements, degrees, receptions,
etc., which I've never seen to be the case, yes.

That strikes me as a pretty jaundiced view, not just of Libra, but of
all the signs. By extending your example, Cap rising people are always
cranky. And I know of at least one example where that simply isn't the
case :-)

"Cranky" is a modern-mainstream interpretation of Cap rising. I
would not use that term. For Cap rising in general, I'd use
words such as serious, responsible, retiring - *but* for the
individual chart, I'd look at the condition of the Ascendant,
Saturn, and Mars, and what they're all doing. A lot has to be
blended to understand the Ascendant (and anything else in the
chart) very well.

As for Libra, also consider that half of it is in the via
combusta, so both half of Libra and Scorpio have an even harder
time than the other signs, potentially. (I can attest to it in
my own chart.)

As for my jaundiced view, well, I'm not sure about that, unless
it's an exact synonym for cynical and realistic (I consider
cynical to be an exact synonym for realistic - but you probably
know that about me by now).

Post by CFA
Ken

[CFA]

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
On Fri, 8 May 2009 07:37:23 -0500, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Ye Olde Astrology does use antiscia, and much, much more -

Modern astrology includes much, much more than I use.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
so is conservative really the term you'd choose?

In various contexts, it fits.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
Symptom of the times? I guess. Things speed(ed) up because people
become more aware.

I can't agree on that point. Things such as technology (and
waste) speeded up, but the finer qualities of humanity are still
in the slow lane. As a whole, we have not advanced anywhere near
the pace of technology, which fools us into thinking we have.

There's no way technology could outpace human consciousness- because
technology comes from that consciousness. What I see happen is that we
find more effective, efficient, and/or powerful ways to perform tasks,
and it brings up the same question every time: how are we going to use
this new power? Is it to support people or take advantage? That's been
true since humans discovered rocks could be used a weapons or elements
of housing.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
There's more violence, evil, and suffering on Earth than ever

Some of that is a function of awareness. Yes, there are more people,
but percentages may not have changed much. We're more aware of, or
sensitive to, say, child abuse. In the 1950s it was just called
'strict'. Adults may not actually be behaving differently.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
before - mainly because the planet is overloaded with more people
than it can support, and our technology has not advanced in the
direction of how to support that much human life without killing
Earth, mile after mile, daily.

Life will continue, one way or another, mainly because the system is
self-correcting.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
The speed-up of technology may be attributed to our interstitial
introduction into the Age of Aquarius, which has to do with
science, invention, machinery,

It is directly linked to advances in human consciousness and
awareness. In fact, technology *is* that consciousness, in tangible
form.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
but which is sadly lacking in the
finer human qualities such as love and compassion.

I'm gonna say at its worst, it's more or less the same level of love
and compassion. We are more aware of its lack, said increasing
awareness being part of the process we call growth, lack of said
growth putting those particular resistant individuals at risk of
elimination from the gene pool.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
One might
only hope that the polar opposite qualities of Leo will be
incorporated more effectively than the qualities of Virgo have
been in the Age of Pisces. (On the other hand, who'd want the
qualities of Virgo - or Pisces, for that matter? JK)

It works. It all works. Everything is in balance. Light cannot exist
without reference to dark, good to evil, abundance to lack, etc. The
game is what will we choose?

Earth as the 3rd rock from the Sun might absolutely be fulfilling its
mandate in the grand scheme- a fork in the road between those aspiring
to higher consciousness, and those who decide otherwise.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
But we only have so much RAM for the minutia. Are
people worse off with an "abridged" form?

In many cases, I would say yes.

I try not to make other people's minds for them.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
Are we as astrologers
serving the request fully if we don't insist people know the full
story?

*We* should know the full story, but that doesn't mean we leave
anyone who seeks help without hope.

I definitely agree with that. Where did "leave anyone who seeks help
without hope" enter the discussion?

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
The more we know and
understand, the better we can advise.

A given.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
I
don't believe we've lost the core of astrology- I believe people are
more self-empowered than they were a century or more ago, and less
invested in what something outside of them thinks they should be doing
or the way they should be living- IOW, more able to source their own
direction internally.

Again, I'd have to disagree.

What would you consider the core of astrology? If people are empowered
by exploring modern astrology, are you saying we're still missing
possibilities? Wouldn't either perspective involve moving beyond the
limitations suggested in the chart? If so, wouldn't that suggest a
better quality of life (success in finances, relationships, good
health, etc), resulting from making better choices? Or is that just
hitting God's lottery?

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
My own experience of modern astrology has been a continuing series of
revelations and valuable insights, for myself and for those whose
charts I've interpreted. So, "totally lost" seems pretty far off the
mark.

Astrology for me has also been a continuing series of
revelations, but never moreso than when I began learning how it
was done before the 17th century. And I'm no expert. It's a
huge study of many, many different voices who argued as
vehemently on points as we do, only they didn't have the internet
so they argued more slowly...

That doesn't seem to address why you say modern astrology is "totally
lost".

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
are in perfect condition, which has to
do with sign placements, house placements, degrees, receptions,
etc., which I've never seen to be the case, yes.

That strikes me as a pretty jaundiced view, not just of Libra, but of
all the signs. By extending your example, Cap rising people are always
cranky. And I know of at least one example where that simply isn't the
case :-)

"Cranky" is a modern-mainstream interpretation of Cap rising. I
would not use that term.

It's a word that exists in daily use, so it's appropriate to find its
place in astrology. To what sign would you ascribe it?

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
As for my jaundiced view, well, I'm not sure about that, unless
it's an exact synonym for cynical and realistic (I consider
cynical to be an exact synonym for realistic - but you probably
know that about me by now).

Big difference: realism also acknowledges positive qualities; cynicism
doesn't, or doesn't without immediate disqualification. Realism, at
its more or less best, is emotionally neutral. Cynicism includes a
pretty fierce hostility to just about anything positive (aside from
things like "I'm positive this isn't going to work" and such).

Ken

[[e-mail]]

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
On Fri, 8 May 2009 07:37:23 -0500, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Ye Olde Astrology does use antiscia, and much, much more -

Modern astrology includes much, much more than I use.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
so is conservative really the term you'd choose?

In various contexts, it fits.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
Symptom of the times? I guess. Things speed(ed) up because people
become more aware.

I can't agree on that point. Things such as technology (and
waste) speeded up, but the finer qualities of humanity are still
in the slow lane. As a whole, we have not advanced anywhere near
the pace of technology, which fools us into thinking we have.

There's no way technology could outpace human consciousness- because
technology comes from that consciousness. What I see happen is that we
find more effective, efficient, and/or powerful ways to perform tasks,
and it brings up the same question every time: how are we going to use
this new power? Is it to support people or take advantage? That's been
true since humans discovered rocks could be used a weapons or elements
of housing.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
There's more violence, evil, and suffering on Earth than ever

Some of that is a function of awareness. Yes, there are more people,
but percentages may not have changed much. We're more aware of, or
sensitive to, say, child abuse. In the 1950s it was just called
'strict'. Adults may not actually be behaving differently.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
before - mainly because the planet is overloaded with more people
than it can support, and our technology has not advanced in the
direction of how to support that much human life without killing
Earth, mile after mile, daily.

Life will continue, one way or another, mainly because the system is
self-correcting.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
The speed-up of technology may be attributed to our interstitial
introduction into the Age of Aquarius, which has to do with
science, invention, machinery,

It is directly linked to advances in human consciousness and
awareness. In fact, technology *is* that consciousness, in tangible
form.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
but which is sadly lacking in the
finer human qualities such as love and compassion.

I'm gonna say at its worst, it's more or less the same level of love
and compassion. We are more aware of its lack, said increasing
awareness being part of the process we call growth, lack of said
growth putting those particular resistant individuals at risk of
elimination from the gene pool.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
One might
only hope that the polar opposite qualities of Leo will be
incorporated more effectively than the qualities of Virgo have
been in the Age of Pisces. (On the other hand, who'd want the
qualities of Virgo - or Pisces, for that matter? JK)

It works. It all works. Everything is in balance. Light cannot exist
without reference to dark, good to evil, abundance to lack, etc. The
game is what will we choose?
Earth as the 3rd rock from the Sun might absolutely be fulfilling its
mandate in the grand scheme- a fork in the road between those aspiring
to higher consciousness, and those who decide otherwise.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
But we only have so much RAM for the minutia. Are
people worse off with an "abridged" form?

In many cases, I would say yes.

I try not to make other people's minds for them.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
Are we as astrologers
serving the request fully if we don't insist people know the full
story?

*We* should know the full story, but that doesn't mean we leave
anyone who seeks help without hope.

I definitely agree with that. Where did "leave anyone who seeks help
without hope" enter the discussion?

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
The more we know and
understand, the better we can advise.

A given.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
I
don't believe we've lost the core of astrology- I believe people are
more self-empowered than they were a century or more ago, and less
invested in what something outside of them thinks they should be doing
or the way they should be living- IOW, more able to source their own
direction internally.

Again, I'd have to disagree.

What would you consider the core of astrology? If people are empowered
by exploring modern astrology, are you saying we're still missing
possibilities? Wouldn't either perspective involve moving beyond the
limitations suggested in the chart? If so, wouldn't that suggest a
better quality of life (success in finances, relationships, good
health, etc), resulting from making better choices? Or is that just
hitting God's lottery?

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
My own experience of modern astrology has been a continuing series of
revelations and valuable insights, for myself and for those whose
charts I've interpreted. So, "totally lost" seems pretty far off the
mark.

Astrology for me has also been a continuing series of
revelations, but never moreso than when I began learning how it
was done before the 17th century. And I'm no expert. It's a
huge study of many, many different voices who argued as
vehemently on points as we do, only they didn't have the internet
so they argued more slowly...

That doesn't seem to address why you say modern astrology is "totally
lost".

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
are in perfect condition, which has to
do with sign placements, house placements, degrees, receptions,
etc., which I've never seen to be the case, yes.

That strikes me as a pretty jaundiced view, not just of Libra, but of
all the signs. By extending your example, Cap rising people are always
cranky. And I know of at least one example where that simply isn't the
case :-)

"Cranky" is a modern-mainstream interpretation of Cap rising. I
would not use that term.

It's a word that exists in daily use, so it's appropriate to find its
place in astrology. To what sign would you ascribe it?

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
As for my jaundiced view, well, I'm not sure about that, unless
it's an exact synonym for cynical and realistic (I consider
cynical to be an exact synonym for realistic - but you probably
know that about me by now).

Big difference: realism also acknowledges positive qualities; cynicism
doesn't, or doesn't without immediate disqualification. Realism, at
its more or less best, is emotionally neutral. Cynicism includes a
pretty fierce hostility to just about anything positive (aside from
things like "I'm positive this isn't going to work" and such).
Ken

I have read your entire reply and, as many of our exchanges in
the past have ended, I can only sigh, because I disagree with you
on so many fundamental points, and neither of us will ever agree
with the other's views. So the discussion/argument is once again
an exercise in futility.

Any Ascendant can be "cranky" - depending on the whole condition
of it, its rulers, et cetera to the max. If I had to choose (a)
sign(s) for general use, I might say Virgo and Aries (and Cancer
if it hasn't been fed).

<sigh>

[A B]

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Any Ascendant can be "cranky" - depending on the whole condition
of it, its rulers, et cetera to the max. If I had to choose (a)
sign(s) for general use, I might say Virgo and Aries...

"Cranky" is a rather vague word. It can only be referred to a particular
sign if you know precisely what the questioner meant by it that time. (What
did Ken mean?) It can mean carping - Virgo, of course. It can mean
resentful, such as Scorpio. It could be contrary, like an Aquarian. It
could even be what a crank is, which might be Aries or Aquarius. Of course
the conditions do make a lot of difference - especially the condition and
sign of the ruler.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
(and Cancer if it hasn't been fed).

GOOD ONE!

A. B.

[~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~]

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
On Fri, 8 May 2009 07:37:23 -0500, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Ye Olde Astrology does use antiscia, and much, much more -

Modern astrology includes much, much more than I use.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
so is conservative really the term you'd choose?

In various contexts, it fits.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
Symptom of the times? I guess. Things speed(ed) up because people
become more aware.

I can't agree on that point. Things such as technology (and
waste) speeded up, but the finer qualities of humanity are still
in the slow lane. As a whole, we have not advanced anywhere near
the pace of technology, which fools us into thinking we have.

There's no way technology could outpace human consciousness- because
technology comes from that consciousness. What I see happen is that we
find more effective, efficient, and/or powerful ways to perform tasks,
and it brings up the same question every time: how are we going to use
this new power? Is it to support people or take advantage? That's been
true since humans discovered rocks could be used a weapons or elements
of housing.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
There's more violence, evil, and suffering on Earth than ever

Some of that is a function of awareness. Yes, there are more people,
but percentages may not have changed much. We're more aware of, or
sensitive to, say, child abuse. In the 1950s it was just called
'strict'. Adults may not actually be behaving differently.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
before - mainly because the planet is overloaded with more people
than it can support, and our technology has not advanced in the
direction of how to support that much human life without killing
Earth, mile after mile, daily.

Life will continue, one way or another, mainly because the system is
self-correcting.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
The speed-up of technology may be attributed to our interstitial
introduction into the Age of Aquarius, which has to do with
science, invention, machinery,

It is directly linked to advances in human consciousness and
awareness. In fact, technology *is* that consciousness, in tangible
form.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
but which is sadly lacking in the
finer human qualities such as love and compassion.

I'm gonna say at its worst, it's more or less the same level of love
and compassion. We are more aware of its lack, said increasing
awareness being part of the process we call growth, lack of said
growth putting those particular resistant individuals at risk of
elimination from the gene pool.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
One might
only hope that the polar opposite qualities of Leo will be
incorporated more effectively than the qualities of Virgo have
been in the Age of Pisces. (On the other hand, who'd want the
qualities of Virgo - or Pisces, for that matter? JK)

It works. It all works. Everything is in balance. Light cannot exist
without reference to dark, good to evil, abundance to lack, etc. The
game is what will we choose?
Earth as the 3rd rock from the Sun might absolutely be fulfilling its
mandate in the grand scheme- a fork in the road between those aspiring
to higher consciousness, and those who decide otherwise.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
But we only have so much RAM for the minutia. Are
people worse off with an "abridged" form?

In many cases, I would say yes.

I try not to make other people's minds for them.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
Are we as astrologers
serving the request fully if we don't insist people know the full
story?

*We* should know the full story, but that doesn't mean we leave
anyone who seeks help without hope.

I definitely agree with that. Where did "leave anyone who seeks help
without hope" enter the discussion?

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
The more we know and
understand, the better we can advise.

A given.

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
I
don't believe we've lost the core of astrology- I believe people are
more self-empowered than they were a century or more ago, and less
invested in what something outside of them thinks they should be doing
or the way they should be living- IOW, more able to source their own
direction internally.

Again, I'd have to disagree.

What would you consider the core of astrology? If people are empowered
by exploring modern astrology, are you saying we're still missing
possibilities? Wouldn't either perspective involve moving beyond the
limitations suggested in the chart? If so, wouldn't that suggest a
better quality of life (success in finances, relationships, good
health, etc), resulting from making better choices? Or is that just
hitting God's lottery?

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA
My own experience of modern astrology has been a continuing series of
revelations and valuable insights, for myself and for those whose
charts I've interpreted. So, "totally lost" seems pretty far off the
mark.

Astrology for me has also been a continuing series of
revelations, but never moreso than when I began learning how it
was done before the 17th century. And I'm no expert. It's a
huge study of many, many different voices who argued as
vehemently on points as we do, only they didn't have the internet
so they argued more slowly...

That doesn't seem to address why you say modern astrology is "totally
lost".

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by CFA

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
are in perfect condition, which has to
do with sign placements, house placements, degrees, receptions,
etc., which I've never seen to be the case, yes.

That strikes me as a pretty jaundiced view, not just of Libra, but of
all the signs. By extending your example, Cap rising people are always
cranky. And I know of at least one example where that simply isn't the
case :-)

"Cranky" is a modern-mainstream interpretation of Cap rising. I
would not use that term.

It's a word that exists in daily use, so it's appropriate to find its
place in astrology. To what sign would you ascribe it?

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
As for my jaundiced view, well, I'm not sure about that, unless
it's an exact synonym for cynical and realistic (I consider
cynical to be an exact synonym for realistic - but you probably
know that about me by now).

Big difference: realism also acknowledges positive qualities; cynicism
doesn't, or doesn't without immediate disqualification. Realism, at
its more or less best, is emotionally neutral. Cynicism includes a
pretty fierce hostility to just about anything positive (aside from
things like "I'm positive this isn't going to work" and such).
Ken

I have read your entire reply and, as many of our exchanges in
the past have ended, I can only sigh, because I disagree with you
on so many fundamental points, and neither of us will ever agree
with the other's views. So the discussion/argument is once again
an exercise in futility.
Any Ascendant can be "cranky" - depending on the whole condition
of it, its rulers, et cetera to the max. If I had to choose (a)
sign(s) for general use, I might say Virgo and Aries (and Cancer
if it hasn't been fed).
<sigh>

Sun signs themselves are good to pinpoint typicalities,
Ascendants as well, but soul astrology and life predictive
astrology goes way beyond that. One has to know certain
things, and not be stuck in the typical sayings of Cap being
cranky, cancer emotional etc. Even though they probably
are too. But nobody mopes more than a Gemini in a bad
mood,and a few can show an enormous moodiness as Sags,
for example. Those things are for fun but not much else.

Many times Asc time isn't even correct. The configurations
of a persons chart of the day he was born, shows how
that persons core is built up, more than planets in signs, or
Ascendants. They color a person, but can't do more than that.
Each planet speaks a clear language in form of being
certain personalities themselves. For example, one planet
want to marry, another want to do you over. Some
planets are sexual to the core, and others are purely romantic,
which are important distincions as we humans are bound to
these oppositional archtypes (except combined with Pluto,
who can actually fuse these things or combine forces into
a whole).
But for regular people and situationsv(lacking Pluto magic),
what applies is, that if you love someone, it's not only sex
on your mind anymore, and the opposite. If you want to
combine sex with love, there's a price (tough balance for many),
or the opposite. Illusions of love are created through physical
affection, only to learn that is all it was. No wonder many
just give up on these things altogether.

Incredibly important knowledge lies in this that makes
astrology predictive and valid all the way, in people's lives.
One can give reliable advice that will fit every time, no matter who
you're talking to.
Modern traditional astrology can't do that, they'd rant about the
two signs having same element and therefor they're good together.
Siimplified fun astrology, yes,
and they do have certain insights into people, but it's just not
enough. The essence of what lies in a person ore with someone
else, are the configurations (that Old Astrology really paid
attention to).
The astrological principles are perfect, we who decipher them
aren't always, and astrology of today is valid but unreliable.

Veronica

[[e-mail]]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 17:03:10 -0500, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Sun signs themselves are good to pinpoint typicalities,
Ascendants as well, but soul astrology and life predictive
astrology goes way beyond that. One has to know certain
things, and not be stuck in the typical sayings of Cap being
cranky, cancer emotional etc. Even though they probably
are too. But nobody mopes more than a Gemini in a bad
mood,and a few can show an enormous moodiness as Sags,
for example. Those things are for fun but not much else.
Many times Asc time isn't even correct. The configurations
of a persons chart of the day he was born, shows how
that persons core is built up, more than planets in signs, or
Ascendants. They color a person, but can't do more than that.
Each planet speaks a clear language in form of being
certain personalities themselves. For example, one planet
want to marry, another want to do you over. Some
planets are sexual to the core, and others are purely romantic,
which are important distincions as we humans are bound to
these oppositional archtypes (except combined with Pluto,
who can actually fuse these things or combine forces into
a whole).
But for regular people and situationsv(lacking Pluto magic),
what applies is, that if you love someone, it's not only sex
on your mind anymore, and the opposite. If you want to
combine sex with love, there's a price (tough balance for many),
or the opposite. Illusions of love are created through physical
affection, only to learn that is all it was. No wonder many
just give up on these things altogether.
Incredibly important knowledge lies in this that makes
astrology predictive and valid all the way, in people's lives.
One can give reliable advice that will fit every time, no matter who
you're talking to.
Modern traditional astrology can't do that, they'd rant about the
two signs having same element and therefor they're good together.
Siimplified fun astrology, yes,
and they do have certain insights into people, but it's just not
enough. The essence of what lies in a person ore with someone
else, are the configurations (that Old Astrology really paid
attention to).
The astrological principles are perfect, we who decipher them
aren't always, and astrology of today is valid but unreliable.
Veronica

I am agreeing. My point is that I find ancient/medieval
astrology to be much more accurate than mainstream-modern
astrology.

So, we agree - we just differ on which schools of astrology give
better results.

[~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~]

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 17:03:10 -0500, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Sun signs themselves are good to pinpoint typicalities,
Ascendants as well, but soul astrology and life predictive
astrology goes way beyond that. One has to know certain
things, and not be stuck in the typical sayings of Cap being
cranky, cancer emotional etc. Even though they probably
are too. But nobody mopes more than a Gemini in a bad
mood,and a few can show an enormous moodiness as Sags,
for example. Those things are for fun but not much else.
Many times Asc time isn't even correct. The configurations
of a persons chart of the day he was born, shows how
that persons core is built up, more than planets in signs, or
Ascendants. They color a person, but can't do more than that.
Each planet speaks a clear language in form of being
certain personalities themselves. For example, one planet
want to marry, another want to do you over. Some
planets are sexual to the core, and others are purely romantic,
which are important distincions as we humans are bound to
these oppositional archtypes (except combined with Pluto,
who can actually fuse these things or combine forces into
a whole).
But for regular people and situationsv(lacking Pluto magic),
what applies is, that if you love someone, it's not only sex
on your mind anymore, and the opposite. If you want to
combine sex with love, there's a price (tough balance for many),
or the opposite. Illusions of love are created through physical
affection, only to learn that is all it was. No wonder many
just give up on these things altogether.
Incredibly important knowledge lies in this that makes
astrology predictive and valid all the way, in people's lives.
One can give reliable advice that will fit every time, no matter who
you're talking to.
Modern traditional astrology can't do that, they'd rant about the
two signs having same element and therefor they're good together.
Siimplified fun astrology, yes,
and they do have certain insights into people, but it's just not
enough. The essence of what lies in a person ore with someone
else, are the configurations (that Old Astrology really paid
attention to).
The astrological principles are perfect, we who decipher them
aren't always, and astrology of today is valid but unreliable.
Veronica

I am agreeing. My point is that I find ancient/medieval
astrology to be much more accurate than mainstream-modern
astrology.
So, we agree - we just differ on which schools of astrology give
better results.

Ok, good. What schools do you think gives good results?

V

[[e-mail]]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 17:24:03 -0500, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 17:03:10 -0500, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Sun signs themselves are good to pinpoint typicalities,
Ascendants as well, but soul astrology and life predictive
astrology goes way beyond that. One has to know certain
things, and not be stuck in the typical sayings of Cap being
cranky, cancer emotional etc. Even though they probably
are too. But nobody mopes more than a Gemini in a bad
mood,and a few can show an enormous moodiness as Sags,
for example. Those things are for fun but not much else.
Many times Asc time isn't even correct. The configurations
of a persons chart of the day he was born, shows how
that persons core is built up, more than planets in signs, or
Ascendants. They color a person, but can't do more than that.
Each planet speaks a clear language in form of being
certain personalities themselves. For example, one planet
want to marry, another want to do you over. Some
planets are sexual to the core, and others are purely romantic,
which are important distincions as we humans are bound to
these oppositional archtypes (except combined with Pluto,
who can actually fuse these things or combine forces into
a whole).
But for regular people and situationsv(lacking Pluto magic),
what applies is, that if you love someone, it's not only sex
on your mind anymore, and the opposite. If you want to
combine sex with love, there's a price (tough balance for many),
or the opposite. Illusions of love are created through physical
affection, only to learn that is all it was. No wonder many
just give up on these things altogether.
Incredibly important knowledge lies in this that makes
astrology predictive and valid all the way, in people's lives.
One can give reliable advice that will fit every time, no matter who
you're talking to.
Modern traditional astrology can't do that, they'd rant about the
two signs having same element and therefor they're good together.
Siimplified fun astrology, yes,
and they do have certain insights into people, but it's just not
enough. The essence of what lies in a person ore with someone
else, are the configurations (that Old Astrology really paid
attention to).
The astrological principles are perfect, we who decipher them
aren't always, and astrology of today is valid but unreliable.
Veronica

I am agreeing. My point is that I find ancient/medieval
astrology to be much more accurate than mainstream-modern
astrology.
So, we agree - we just differ on which schools of astrology give
better results.

Ok, good. What schools do you think gives good results?
V

The study of medieval astrology, so far. By the way, that is
what has been called "Traditional" astrology for over 15 years
now (along with "Classical", which may refer more to ancient
Hellenistic methods - not sure) - so when I first replied, I
meant to explain that the word, "traditional", does not refer to
the regular mainstream stuff in the books of the 20th century.

*But*, I still use some methods, such as secondary progressions,
and solar arcs, which might not have come from the medieval era,
which coincided with the Hellenistic period around 2000 years
ago, and which I think is even older - not sure (I need to read
some history about it). Medieval astrology uses Primary
Directions (among many other things) which, so far, I haven't
found to work - probably because there is more than one way of
calculating them, and I can't afford the software which might
give me a choice of various types.

But it does use a variety of other methods, and a whole different
way of reading a chart, which do work amazingly well.

So, that's what I'm into, but I don't have much time for study,
unfortunately. There's a lot to learn. There isn't enough time
in life to learn it all (everything that could be learned well
enough to put into practice immediately - at least not for me).

So I'm not putting down what you think is best. I just wanted to
make the point that the term, "Traditional", refers to all the
astrologies practiced before the 18th or 17th centuries.

[~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~]

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 17:24:03 -0500, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~

Post by ***@twixtntween.com
On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 17:03:10 -0500, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
Sun signs themselves are good to pinpoint typicalities,
Ascendants as well, but soul astrology and life predictive
astrology goes way beyond that. One has to know certain
things, and not be stuck in the typical sayings of Cap being
cranky, cancer emotional etc. Even though they probably
are too. But nobody mopes more than a Gemini in a bad
mood,and a few can show an enormous moodiness as Sags,
for example. Those things are for fun but not much else.
Many times Asc time isn't even correct. The configurations
of a persons chart of the day he was born, shows how
that persons core is built up, more than planets in signs, or
Ascendants. They color a person, but can't do more than that.
Each planet speaks a clear language in form of being
certain personalities themselves. For example, one planet
want to marry, another want to do you over. Some
planets are sexual to the core, and others are purely romantic,
which are important distincions as we humans are bound to
these oppositional archtypes (except combined with Pluto,
who can actually fuse these things or combine forces into
a whole).
But for regular people and situationsv(lacking Pluto magic),
what applies is, that if you love someone, it's not only sex
on your mind anymore, and the opposite. If you want to
combine sex with love, there's a price (tough balance for many),
or the opposite. Illusions of love are created through physical
affection, only to learn that is all it was. No wonder many
just give up on these things altogether.
Incredibly important knowledge lies in this that makes
astrology predictive and valid all the way, in people's lives.
One can give reliable advice that will fit every time, no matter who
you're talking to.
Modern traditional astrology can't do that, they'd rant about the
two signs having same element and therefor they're good together.
Siimplified fun astrology, yes,
and they do have certain insights into people, but it's just not
enough. The essence of what lies in a person ore with someone
else, are the configurations (that Old Astrology really paid
attention to).
The astrological principles are perfect, we who decipher them
aren't always, and astrology of today is valid but unreliable.
Veronica

I am agreeing. My point is that I find ancient/medieval
astrology to be much more accurate than mainstream-modern
astrology.
So, we agree - we just differ on which schools of astrology give
better results.

Ok, good. What schools do you think gives good results?
V

The study of medieval astrology, so far. By the way, that is
what has been called "Traditional" astrology for over 15 years
now (along with "Classical", which may refer more to ancient
Hellenistic methods - not sure) - so when I first replied, I
meant to explain that the word, "traditional", does not refer to
the regular mainstream stuff in the books of the 20th century.
*But*, I still use some methods, such as secondary progressions,
and solar arcs, which might not have come from the medieval era,
which coincided with the Hellenistic period around 2000 years
ago, and which I think is even older - not sure (I need to read
some history about it). Medieval astrology uses Primary
Directions (among many other things) which, so far, I haven't
found to work - probably because there is more than one way of
calculating them, and I can't afford the software which might
give me a choice of various types.
But it does use a variety of other methods, and a whole different
way of reading a chart, which do work amazingly well.
So, that's what I'm into, but I don't have much time for study,
unfortunately. There's a lot to learn. There isn't enough time
in life to learn it all (everything that could be learned well
enough to put into practice immediately - at least not for me).
So I'm not putting down what you think is best. I just wanted to
make the point that the term, "Traditional", refers to all the
astrologies practiced before the 18th or 17th centuries.

Yes, the terms are confusing. I was interested in what you have
found to work. I have read a book about the really old astrology,
and it's more far out and pretty deterministic. But it has clearer
statements, which I like. It is enough muzzling up in astrology
already, so reading that stuff is a relief and also makes you
wonder about it all.

V

[[e-mail]]

On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:02:39 -0500, "~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~"

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~

Post by ***@twixtntween.com

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
The astrological principles are perfect, we who decipher them
aren't always, and astrology of today is valid but unreliable.
Veronica

I am agreeing. My point is that I find ancient/medieval
astrology to be much more accurate than mainstream-modern
astrology.
So, we agree - we just differ on which schools of astrology give
better results.

Ok, good. What schools do you think gives good results?
V

The study of medieval astrology, so far. By the way, that is
what has been called "Traditional" astrology for over 15 years
now (along with "Classical", which may refer more to ancient
Hellenistic methods - not sure) - so when I first replied, I
meant to explain that the word, "traditional", does not refer to
the regular mainstream stuff in the books of the 20th century.
*But*, I still use some methods, such as secondary progressions,
and solar arcs, which might not have come from the medieval era,
which coincided with the Hellenistic period around 2000 years
ago, and which I think is even older - not sure (I need to read
some history about it). Medieval astrology uses Primary
Directions (among many other things) which, so far, I haven't
found to work - probably because there is more than one way of
calculating them, and I can't afford the software which might
give me a choice of various types.
But it does use a variety of other methods, and a whole different
way of reading a chart, which do work amazingly well.
So, that's what I'm into, but I don't have much time for study,
unfortunately. There's a lot to learn. There isn't enough time
in life to learn it all (everything that could be learned well
enough to put into practice immediately - at least not for me).
So I'm not putting down what you think is best. I just wanted to
make the point that the term, "Traditional", refers to all the
astrologies practiced before the 18th or 17th centuries.

Yes, the terms are confusing. I was interested in what you have
found to work. I have read a book about the really old astrology,
and it's more far out and pretty deterministic. But it has clearer
statements, which I like. It is enough muzzling up in astrology
already, so reading that stuff is a relief and also makes you
wonder about it all.

Yes, that's one of the things I like so much about it - it is
clear, and the way of interpreting a chart has rules which really
work. And it's symmetrical, in many ways, so many astrologers
using the same knowledge, can interpret the chart the same way,
rather than in maninstream-modern, where no two astrologers will
interpret a chart the same way.

It's true that it is deterministic, but I think that helped me a
lot, because with modern ways, I was so often led into
self-delusions. Understanding my chart so much better now has
helped me understand what my life is really about, and to accept
it, and why certain aspirations I had when I was younger had
never worked out.

But my chart is, in my opinion, a pretty simple one - by which I
mean that it has a very directed/narrow focus. Anyway, it was a
big relief to me to finally begin to understand it, without all
the self-delusion.

I think any form of astrology which works well for others in this
same way - the attainment of self-understanding - is fine, too.

My biggest gripe with modern-mainstream is that it depends on the
subjectivity of the astrologer, and anything can mean anything,
depending on the point of view (or current mood) of any
particular or individual astrologer.

Post by ~.*.Saba Gracile.*.~
V