Discussion:
Fixed Stars - Right Ascension,Declination,Parans
(too old to reply)
a***@yahoo.com
2009-04-24 21:19:08 UTC
Permalink
I read that Bernadette Brady does like to use projected stars onto the
the ecliptic. She talked about the mythology of the
constellations,stars are important. She says that if we put them on
the ecliptic, we are losing their mythology and stories. She said
that it's wrong to force the stars on the Sun's path. She says that
the planets work on the ecliptic because they are part of our solar
system and that the stars don't work on the ecliptic because they are
not part of our solar system.


My question is how does she view Right Ascension and Declination?
They have nothing to do with the ecliptic. Both of them are equatorial
coordinates.

Do a planet and star connected by Right Ascension and Declination have
a real connection?

Astronomers use both coordinates to locate objects. They don't use
ecliptic coordinates.
I wonder if fixed star ascension,declination coordinates could be more
relevant in Visual Astrology.


She uses the Egyptian/Roman day
previous sunrise

what about Babylonian/Hebrew
previous sunset

what about Astronomical
local moon

what about Modern Day
local midnight



the parans vary according to the say that we use

it seems that the perception of what a day is relative and human-made
construct.


Since we live in modern times, wouldn't it make sense to use a modern
day paran method.



Raymond
John Roth
2009-04-25 15:17:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
I read that Bernadette Brady does like to use projected stars onto the
the ecliptic. She talked about the mythology of the
constellations,stars are important.  She says that if we put them on
the ecliptic, we are losing their mythology and stories.  She said
that it's wrong to force the stars on the Sun's path.   She says that
the planets work on the ecliptic because they are part of our solar
system and that the stars don't work on the ecliptic because they are
not part of our solar system.
My question is how does she view Right Ascension and Declination?
They have nothing to do with the ecliptic. Both of them are equatorial
coordinates.
Do a planet and star connected by Right Ascension and Declination have
a real connection?
Astronomers use both coordinates to locate objects. They don't use
ecliptic coordinates.
I wonder if fixed star ascension,declination coordinates could be more
relevant in Visual Astrology.
She uses the Egyptian/Roman day
previous sunrise
what about Babylonian/Hebrew
previous sunset
what about Astronomical
local moon
what about Modern Day
local midnight
the parans vary according to the say that we use
it seems that the perception of what a day is relative and human-made
construct.
Since we live in modern times,  wouldn't it make sense to use a modern
day paran method.
Raymond
You might want to read her book, Brady's Book of Fixed Stars.
It lays out the arguments and the methods. You might also
want to look at the newsletter she puts out monthly where she
(and one of her students) does an analysis of something using
this technique. The newsletter archive is at:
http://www.zyntara.com/starlight_newsletters.htm

The short answer is that everything's encapsulated in the phrase:
Visual Astrology. What you see is what you get, and if you don't
see it, you don't use it. It's astrology as it might have been before
the Greeks got their hands into the stew. A calculated relationship
is no relationship.

I'd certainly be willing to talk about it more if anyone's interested,
but answering hypothetical questions simply isn't my thing. If you
want to know why it's sunrise to sunrise rather than sunset to sunset,
you'll need to collect the data. Maybe all of us will learn something.

John Roth
a***@yahoo.com
2009-04-26 05:59:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Roth
Post by a***@yahoo.com
I read that Bernadette Brady does like to use projected stars onto the
the ecliptic. She talked about the mythology of the
constellations,stars are important.  She says that if we put them on
the ecliptic, we are losing their mythology and stories.  She said
that it's wrong to force the stars on the Sun's path.   She says that
the planets work on the ecliptic because they are part of our solar
system and that the stars don't work on the ecliptic because they are
not part of our solar system.
My question is how does she view Right Ascension and Declination?
They have nothing to do with the ecliptic. Both of them are equatorial
coordinates.
Do a planet and star connected by Right Ascension and Declination have
a real connection?
Astronomers use both coordinates to locate objects. They don't use
ecliptic coordinates.
I wonder if fixed star ascension,declination coordinates could be more
relevant in Visual Astrology.
She uses the Egyptian/Roman day
previous sunrise
what about Babylonian/Hebrew
previous sunset
what about Astronomical
local moon
what about Modern Day
local midnight
the parans vary according to the say that we use
it seems that the perception of what a day is relative and human-made
construct.
Since we live in modern times,  wouldn't it make sense to use a modern
day paran method.
Raymond
You might want to read her book, Brady's Book of Fixed Stars.
It lays out the arguments and the methods. You might also
want to look at the newsletter she puts out monthly where she
(and one of her students) does an analysis of something using
this technique. The newsletter archive is at:http://www.zyntara.com/starlight_newsletters.htm
Visual Astrology. What you see is what you get, and if you don't
see it, you don't use it. It's astrology as it might have been before
the Greeks got their hands into the stew. A calculated relationship
is no relationship.
I'd certainly be willing to talk about it more if anyone's interested,
but answering hypothetical questions simply isn't my thing. If you
want to know why it's sunrise to sunrise rather than sunset to sunset,
you'll need to collect the data. Maybe all of us will learn something.
John Roth
Yes.........I have her book. I bought it back in late January of
2002. I got her Starlight program in late 2002. I like the work
that she has done with fixed stars, and it got me wondering if using
the projected ecliptic degrees are wrong.




I found my answer to my question about Brady's view about Right
Ascension



"The ecliptic is the circle of the zodiac, and is shown in every chart
as the
outer zodiac ring, on to which the planets are placed. This works well
as a
method of representing the position of planets within the two
dimensional
limitation of a horoscope, because the Sun is always exactly on the
ecliptic,
and the planets are always close to the ecliptic.

The stars, however, are not close to the ecliptic; they cover the
celestial
sphere from pole to pole. Nonetheless, the technique of star-
aspecting chooses
to sacrifice the stars' true position in the sky by projecting all
stars to the
ecliptic.

For example, Arcturus, which is located in the figure on the line of
the horizon
(near the number "60"), would be projected along the lines of Right
Ascension
(blue lines) until it cut the ecliptic. This projected position would
be close
to the Sun in early degrees of Scorpio. Thus an astrologer who worked
with star
aspects would say that Arcturus is at 3° or 4° Scorpio, and therefore
conjunct
the Sun.

This is done to enable the star to be represented in the two-
dimensional
framework of a horoscope, in a similar manner to the planets.
Unfortunately this
technique sacrifices information about the true position of stars on
the
celestial sphere, and has consequently resulted in some misconceptions
among
astrologers."
http://www.zyntara.com/starlight_tutorials_paransaspects.html

She is referring to the Right Ascension coordinates of Arcturus in
ecliptic
longitude equivalent. I have Sun in alignment with Arcturus in Right
Ascension. They conjunct between 3 to 4 degrees Scorpio when using
Zodiac
Longitude equivalent.


both local midnight - modern day setting and previous midnight -
Hebrew,Babylonian day shows Arcturus culminated as Sun culminated

so even though Sun and Arcturus are in alignment in Right Ascension,
they
actually have a visual connection if using the aforementioned day
settings.


another thing to is that my Moon is in alignment with Fomalhaut in
projected
ecliptic longitude with 17 minutes of arc.

according to local midnight - modern day,Fomalhaut culminated as Moon
culminated. Therefore,they could actually have a visual connection


This is what I read about the modern day that starts at midnight. It's
known as
the civil day.

"For civil purposes a common clock time has been defined for an entire
region
based on the mean local solar time at some central meridian. Such time
zones
began to be adopted about the middle of the 19th century when
railroads with
regular schedules came into use, with most major countries having
adopted them
by 1929. For the whole world, 40 such time zones are now in use. The
main one is
"world time" or Coordinated Universal Time (UTC).

The present common convention has the civil day starting at midnight,
which is
near the time of the lower culmination of the mean Sun on the central
meridian
of the time zone. A day is commonly divided into 24 hours of 60
minutes of 60
seconds each."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day


My Moon is in alignment with Sadalmelik with 13 minutes of arc in
projected
ecliptic longitude, and they are in paran in the Roman/Egyptian day
setting and
Babylonian/Hebrew setting but not in the modern day nor the
astronomical day
systems

stars being projected onto the ecliptic might be felt because there
are
corresponding parans with them...depending on which day system you
look at.


My Moon is in alignment with Ancha with 18 minutes of arc , but it's a
true
conjunction in the actual sky too. They conjunct with 49 minutes of
arc. So my
Moon is actually in the hip of Aquarius constellation with it being in
a true
conjunction to Ancha.

My Sun parallels Khambalia in declinations with 4 minutes of arc,and
their true
separation is 1'19. I would say that parallel is relevant with it with
the Sun
being near Khambalia even though it's 19 minutes over 1 degree orb
that's used
with stars.





Raymond
whatever@twixtntween.com
2009-04-25 20:54:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
I read that Bernadette Brady does like to use projected stars onto the
the ecliptic. She talked about the mythology of the
constellations,stars are important. She says that if we put them on
the ecliptic, we are losing their mythology and stories. She said
that it's wrong to force the stars on the Sun's path. She says that
the planets work on the ecliptic because they are part of our solar
system and that the stars don't work on the ecliptic because they are
not part of our solar system.
Yes, but even still, John Dee, the astrologer of Queen Elizabeth
I, used the fixed star, Regulus, in zodiacal longitude (projected
onto the ecliptic) in his brilliant electional chart for her
coronation.

G.
Post by a***@yahoo.com
My question is how does she view Right Ascension and Declination?
They have nothing to do with the ecliptic. Both of them are equatorial
coordinates.
Do a planet and star connected by Right Ascension and Declination have
a real connection?
Astronomers use both coordinates to locate objects. They don't use
ecliptic coordinates.
I wonder if fixed star ascension,declination coordinates could be more
relevant in Visual Astrology.
She uses the Egyptian/Roman day
previous sunrise
what about Babylonian/Hebrew
previous sunset
what about Astronomical
local moon
what about Modern Day
local midnight
the parans vary according to the say that we use
it seems that the perception of what a day is relative and human-made
construct.
Since we live in modern times, wouldn't it make sense to use a modern
day paran method.
Raymond
a***@yahoo.com
2009-04-26 06:00:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Post by a***@yahoo.com
I read that Bernadette Brady does like to use projected stars onto the
the ecliptic. She talked about the mythology of the
constellations,stars are important.  She says that if we put them on
the ecliptic, we are losing their mythology and stories.  She said
that it's wrong to force the stars on the Sun's path.   She says that
the planets work on the ecliptic because they are part of our solar
system and that the stars don't work on the ecliptic because they are
not part of our solar system.
Yes, but even still, John Dee, the astrologer of Queen Elizabeth
I, used the fixed star, Regulus, in zodiacal longitude (projected
onto the ecliptic) in his brilliant electional chart for her
coronation.
G.
Regulus is very near the ecliptic, and so there can be true
conjunctions to Regulus


also she had parans involving powerful stars


Star Light program shows the following:




HELIACAL RISING STAR
Alphard - Rising 105 mins 21 secs before Sunrise -
To lead a life close to the edge, or to seek intense emotional
encounters

HELIACAL SETTING STAR
Sualocin - Setting 110 mins 58 secs before Sunrise -
A tendency to rely on your natural talents

HELIACAL SETTING STAR
Sadalmelek - Setting 114 mins 49 secs before Sunrise -
An confident person with a good network

PARANS - BY ANGLE
RISING - Stars of Your Youth
Altair as © Mars is Setting orb 00 mins 13 secs -
Bold and at times rash action
Vindemiatrix as ¥ Sun is Rising orb 01 mins 00 secs -
The one who gathers information, things or people
Aldebaran as © Mars is Rising orb 01 mins 28 secs -
The successful craftsperson; to gain success through decisive action
Facies as ¦ Moon is On Nadir orb 01 mins 58 secs -
Emotionally experiencing violence or turmoil

CULMINATING - Stars of Your Prime
Betelgeuse as ¥ Sun is Rising orb 00 mins 11 secs -
Success in one’s ventures
Alderamin as ª Jupiter is Setting orb 00 mins 36 secs -
To create an illusion but with dignity and pride - Circumpolar
Mirfak as ¦ Moon is Culminating orb 00 mins 53 secs -
Thrill seeker, the lover of a good fight or challenge - Circumpolar
Sadalsuud as ª Jupiter is Setting orb 01 mins 10 secs -
To benefit by the fortunate turn of events
Diadem as © Mars is Setting orb 01 mins 19 secs -
Hardship, sacrifice of oneself for others
Phact as ¥ Sun is Rising orb 01 mins 24 secs -
Headstrong, someone who does not seek or take advice
Zuben Elgenubi as ¦ Moon is On Nadir orb 01 mins 41 secs -
A person who wants to give aid to others
Polaris as ¨ Venus is On Nadir orb 01 mins 51 secs -
Single minded ideas about relationships - Circumpolar
Vega as § Mercury is Setting orb 01 mins 58 secs -
A visionary with a very persuasive voice, or charismatic ideas -
Curtailed passage

SETTING - Stars of Your Latter Years
Al Rescha as « Saturn is Culminating orb 00 mins 18 secs -
The wise spiritual, or creative, leader
Ras Alhague as ¨ Venus is On Nadir orb 00 mins 21 secs -
A person who expands the collective's options by increasing the
information available
Phact as § Mercury is Rising orb 01 mins 04 secs -
An original thinker or a foolish mind, always seeking the new ideas
Spica as ¨ Venus is Setting orb 01 mins 22 secs -
A master of getting one's needs met, a persuasive personality

ON NADIR - Stars of Your Foundation
Zuben Eschamali as ¦ Moon is Culminating orb 01 mins 12 secs -
To feel responsible for social, or ecological, problems
Altair as § Mercury is Rising orb 01 mins 14 secs -
A military mind, a brave and independent thinker
Acumen as ¥ Sun is Rising orb 01 mins 19 secs -
Personal attacks on one’s credibility
Vega as ¨ Venus is Rising orb 01 mins 20 secs -
The artist, visionary; ideas on social order - Curtailed passage



Raymond
Martin Lewicki
2009-04-26 08:36:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Yes, but even still, John Dee, the astrologer of Queen Elizabeth
I, used the fixed star, Regulus, in zodiacal longitude (projected
onto the ecliptic) in his brilliant electional chart for her
coronation.
G.
That's because Regulus IS virtually on the ecliptic - only 28' . The
other near ecliptic stars are Aldeberan, Spica and Antares.

Martin
John Roth
2009-04-26 15:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Yes, but even still, John Dee, the astrologer of Queen Elizabeth
I, used the fixed star, Regulus, in zodiacal longitude (projected
onto the ecliptic) in his brilliant electional chart for her
coronation.
G.
 That's because Regulus IS virtually on the ecliptic - only 28' . The
other near ecliptic stars are Aldeberan, Spica and Antares.
Martin
That's a good point. You can find examples of any technique working,
many times quite well, if all you look at is isolated examples. The
only true test is whether the technique works consistently, with a
mass of data. One data point does not satisfy.

For me, at least, the biggest criticism against the projection methods
of working with fixed stars is that very few people use them. I don't
think this would be the case if they worked consistently to add value
to chart interpretations.

John Roth
a***@yahoo.com
2009-04-27 14:31:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Roth
Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Yes, but even still, John Dee, the astrologer of Queen Elizabeth
I, used the fixed star, Regulus, in zodiacal longitude (projected
onto the ecliptic) in his brilliant electional chart for her
coronation.
G.
 That's because Regulus IS virtually on the ecliptic - only 28' . The
other near ecliptic stars are Aldeberan, Spica and Antares.
Martin
That's a good point. You can find examples of any technique working,
many times quite well, if all you look at is isolated examples. The
only true test is whether the technique works consistently, with a
mass of data. One data point does not satisfy.
For me, at least, the biggest criticism against the projection methods
of working with fixed stars is that very few people use them. I don't
think this would be the case if they worked consistently to add value
to chart interpretations.
John Roth
I forgot to mention in my first post that I agree with Bernadette
Brady's stance. I believe in using the parans instead of the ecliptic
projections. I believe that we shouldn't force the stars to conform to
our Sun's path because it would take away from the stars'
heritage,story,and uniqueness. I am a believer in mythological
themes. The assigning planetary features to the stars makes no sense
to me. The stars are independent of the Sun and its planets. Therefore
it makes no sense to say that they are Venus-Mercury like or Mars-
Jupiter like. I am definitely going to work a lot with parans. I
do like the Egyptian/Roman day method that she uses, but I want to
look into the other day methods


Raymond
whatever@twixtntween.com
2009-08-27 03:27:58 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 03:36:19 -0500, Martin Lewicki
Post by Martin Lewicki
Post by ***@twixtntween.com
Yes, but even still, John Dee, the astrologer of Queen Elizabeth
I, used the fixed star, Regulus, in zodiacal longitude (projected
onto the ecliptic) in his brilliant electional chart for her
coronation.
G.
That's because Regulus IS virtually on the ecliptic - only 28' . The
other near ecliptic stars are Aldeberan, Spica and Antares.
Martin
Aha! Well, it still hasn't done me much good.

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