My take on wide orbed aspects and harmonics

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

a***@yahoo.com

2006-10-12 19:21:22 UTC

I feel that people can identify with wide orbed aspects because it's
another harmonic aspect that they have like a person who has a wide
orbed square might have a triundecile Also wide orbed planets could be
parallel in declination which can strengthen the conjunction. For
instance,I have Venus conj Neptune with a 10 degree orb. I wouldn't
count that at all. I do have Venus parallel Neptune with 47 minutes of
arc,and it is Venus conjunct Neptune with 3'07 orb in declination
longitude equivalent chart. Wide orbed oppositions could be
contraparallel in declination which can strengthen the opposition. Also
a wide conjunction can be involved in a midpoint configuration. For
instance,if that guy has Moon square Saturn/Neptune midpoint within 1
degree orb, then he would definitely feel the effects of Saturn conj
Neptune.

I don't use more than 7 degree orb for square..don't feel right using
more than 6 degree orb for a square. I am concerned about running into
other harmonic aspects. A wide orbed square could function differently
due to it being an aspect of a different harmonic.

For instance, My uncle has Moon in 14'27 Aquarius and his Neptune is in
6'57 Scorpio. A lot of astrologers would say that he has Moon
square(90'00) Neptune with 7'30 orb. However, his Moon is
triundecile(98'11) Neptune with 41 minutes of arc. That's an 11th
harmonic aspect. I read that 11th harmonic can be difficult too.
Also...11th harmonic could also be about inspiration like 11 in
Numerology. A master number,it has great potential but great
challenges. 11 is highly intuitive, even psychic, this Master number is
a channel between the sub-conscious and the conscious mind. Highly
charged. Can be neurotic. I have Mercury square Mars with 7'33 orb.
However,I have Mercury triundecile Mars with 38 minutes of arc,and part
of an 11th harmonic pattern. 11th harmonic is prominent in my chart. I
wouldn't have known this if I had used wide orbed squares. BTW..my
birthday is on 29th. 29 reduces to 11. 2 + 9 = 11.

I feel that if we overlook harmonic aspects by using wide orbs for
major aspects and commonly used minor aspects,we overlook other
harmonic aspects that can give more detail. I already pointed this out
to others about using wide orbs for quincunx(150'00,12th harmonic)
would end up overlooking the biquintile(144'00,5th harmonic) and
triseptile(154'17,7th harmonic). Using wide orbs for Noel Tyl's
quindecile(165'00) lead to overlooking the quinqueundecile(163'38,11th
harmonic). Using wide orbs for sextile lead to overlooking the
septile(51'26,7th harmonic). Using wide orbs for semisextile(30'00,12th
harmonic) lead to overlooking the undecile(32'44,11th harmonic).

I wouldn't let astrologers dismiss my triundecile just because they
think that I have a square nor would I let them dismiss my biquintile
because they think that I have a quincunx nor would I let them dismiss
my quinqueundecile because they think that I have a quindecile. I
wouldn't do that to any other's charts. We have harmonics for a reason.

You run into different harmonics when you use wide orbs. You can easily
overlook other aspect patterns. The wide orbed aspects can have a
combination influence of the wide orbed aspect and the actual harmonic
aspect that it is. I guess the combination of those can be confused and
stressful like 2 people fighting over the steering wheel and arguing
who is the better driver.

page 113 of HOROSCOPE SYMBOLS by Robert Hand

Though we do not yet know quite what do do with it in practical
work,recent research into harmonics has raised another consideration
about orbs. The work of John Addey and others makes it appear that
wide-orbed aspects differ qualitatively as well as quantitatively from
close-orbed aspects. Thus a square of 96 degrees may have nature quite
different from a square of exactly 90 degrees, because whereas 90
degrees is based on the fourth harmonic,96 degrees is based on the
fifteenth harmonic(4 x 360 degrees/15 = 96 degrees). Much research
remains to be done,however,before we can use this in practical chart
delineation.

I can see My Moon square Neptune with 1'22 orb being an actual square.
I can see my Moon square Saturn with 1'58 being an an actual square. I
definitely feel them as a square,and they do form a t-square.
Therefore,I have Moon oppose Saturn/Neptune midpoint with 17 minutes of
arc. However,I wouldn't view my Mercury square Mars with over 7 degrees
to be a square at all. It's a triundecile and part of my 11th harmonic
aspect pattern with Ascendant,Saturn,and Uranus. Astrologers would use
wide orbed configurations,but those might not even be true
configurations. Also there could be midpoint configuration that helps
them relate to the aspect pattern. opposition of 2 points doesn't have
to be in orb to square another point. There can be wide separation of A
point to C and a wide applying of B to C so that A/B=C.

I believe that looking at the harmonic chart can help see if you
actually have that aspect in the 1st harmonic chart.

For instance, to see if I actually have a biquintile(5th harmonic) in
my 1st harmonic chart,I would check my 5th harmonic chart to see if I
have any conjunctions in that chart. 5th harmonic aspects in 1st
harmonic chart appear as conjunctions in 5th harmonic chart. If they
appear as conjunction in 5th harmonic,then they actually are in
biquintile. I am not sure about the orbs yet. I read that harmonic orbs
are different from conjunction regular orbs in 1st harmonic chart. I
read that they can be considerably wider than in a 1st harmonic chart.
I was reading that it can be past 15 degrees. I have Sun trine(3rd
harmonic) Moon with 2'10 orb that appears Sun conjunct Moon with 6'28
orb in the 3rd harmonic. It seems it's multiplying the harmonic number
with the orb to get the orb in the harmonic chart. I have Moon
square(4th harmonic) Neptune with 1'22 orb, and it appears as Moon conj
Neptune with 5'31 orb in the 4th harmonic chart. Trines are tricky too.
Trine is also trinovile. A trine within 2 degree orb will appear as a
conjunction in 9th harmonic chart. My girlfriend's Sun trine Uranus
with 14 minutes of arc appear as Sun conjunct Uranus with 2'07 orb in
9th harmonic chart. Her Sun trine Jupiter with 1'41 orb appear as Sun
conjunct Jupiter with around 15 degree orb in 9th harmonic. BTW..If a
synastry involves trines 2 degrees and less,they form conjunctions in
9th harmonic chart. My girlfriend's Venus trines my Ascendant with 3
minutes of arc. In our 9th harmonic chart synastry,her Venus conjuncts
my Ascendant with 29 minutes of arc. 9th harmonic chart is used for
marriage in Vedic Astrology. It's called the navamsha.

I can't wait to receive my book SABIAN ASPECT ORBS....It has so much
stuff on harmonic aspects.

It's all Geometry.

James Aronis

2006-10-13 07:18:17 UTC

Permalink

Hi,

I noticed your post in the 'Pluto' thread, but I decided to reply to
this new thread instead...

Post by a***@yahoo.com
I feel that people can identify with wide orbed aspects because it's
another harmonic aspect that they have like a person who has a wide
orbed square might have a triundecile Also wide orbed planets could be
parallel in declination which can strengthen the conjunction. For
instance,I have Venus conj Neptune with a 10 degree orb. I wouldn't
count that at all. I do have Venus parallel Neptune with 47 minutes of
arc,and it is Venus conjunct Neptune with 3'07 orb in declination
longitude equivalent chart. Wide orbed oppositions could be
contraparallel in declination which can strengthen the opposition. Also
a wide conjunction can be involved in a midpoint configuration. For
instance,if that guy has Moon square Saturn/Neptune midpoint within 1
degree orb, then he would definitely feel the effects of Saturn conj
Neptune.

Squares and conjunctions are very potent aspects with a fairly wide
area of influence, especially in natal configurations. Why not
interpret both aspects in cases such as the ones you're citing in this
thread? There's no reason why astrologers shouldn't utilize
multiple aspect delineations in cases where there are contiguous
planetary configurations. If multiple delineations accurately describe
the individual, why not employ them?

Post by a***@yahoo.com
I don't use more than 7 degree orb for square..don't feel right using
more than 6 degree orb for a square. I am concerned about running into
other harmonic aspects. A wide orbed square could function differently
due to it being an aspect of a different harmonic.

As mentioned above, you can employ both. Nowhere is it written (AFAIK)
that you must *choose* between closely angled aspects based on personal
preference. That sounds as nearly limiting as your suggestion that
harmonics are being ignored or assigned secondary emphasis/status in
favor of wide-orbed classical aspects.

Post by a***@yahoo.com
For instance, My uncle has Moon in 14'27 Aquarius and his Neptune is in
6'57 Scorpio. A lot of astrologers would say that he has Moon
square(90'00) Neptune with 7'30 orb. However, his Moon is
triundecile(98'11) Neptune with 41 minutes of arc. That's an 11th
harmonic aspect. I read that 11th harmonic can be difficult too.
Also...11th harmonic could also be about inspiration like 11 in
Numerology. A master number,it has great potential but great
challenges. 11 is highly intuitive, even psychic, this Master number is
a channel between the sub-conscious and the conscious mind. Highly
charged. Can be neurotic. I have Mercury square Mars with 7'33 orb.
However,I have Mercury triundecile Mars with 38 minutes of arc,and part
of an 11th harmonic pattern. 11th harmonic is prominent in my chart. I
wouldn't have known this if I had used wide orbed squares. BTW..my
birthday is on 29th. 29 reduces to 11. 2 + 9 = 11.

Actually, numerologists typically reduce the entire birth date to
arrive at what is sometimes referred to as a 'life lesson/path' or
destiny number. This is the most important of the various possible
personal numbers calculated in numerology. Another number is acquired
by taking every letter of your entire name, assigning numerical values
and reducing the number of the sum total of the letters. The reduction
of the birthday is tertiary in numerological importance, being the
least personal of the three numbers mentioned. For instance, my birth
date: 05/19/1967 = 38, which subsequently reduces to 11/2. What is your
whole birth date? Reduce after adding all the digits, and you arrive at
your true life path number.

Post by a***@yahoo.com
I feel that if we overlook harmonic aspects by using wide orbs for
major aspects and commonly used minor aspects,we overlook other
harmonic aspects that can give more detail. I already pointed this out
to others about using wide orbs for quincunx(150'00,12th harmonic)
would end up overlooking the biquintile(144'00,5th harmonic) and
triseptile(154'17,7th harmonic). Using wide orbs for Noel Tyl's
quindecile(165'00) lead to overlooking the quinqueundecile(163'38,11th
harmonic). Using wide orbs for sextile lead to overlooking the
septile(51'26,7th harmonic). Using wide orbs for semisextile(30'00,12th
harmonic) lead to overlooking the undecile(32'44,11th harmonic).
From a non-professional's perspective (I think I also speak for

others here), one of the reasons some people avoid using harmonic
aspects is largely due to the dearth of useful and accessible
descriptive information. Try explaining in depth what a
'quinqueundecile' aspect is to a novice or other non-professionals,
and you're likely to receive blank stares.

Post by a***@yahoo.com
I wouldn't let astrologers dismiss my triundecile just because they
think that I have a square nor would I let them dismiss my biquintile
because they think that I have a quincunx nor would I let them dismiss
my quinqueundecile because they think that I have a quindecile. I
wouldn't do that to any other's charts. We have harmonics for a reason.

To be fair, I recently added the quindecile aspect (160°) to Solar
Fire 6. I purchased a book a while back totally devoted to the
quindecile. Included are decent informative delineations with which I
can reference. However, this book is a rare case. Most of the harmonic
aspects you mentioned don't have a substantial body of documented
research to reference from. Two or three sentences of interpretation on
a web site or some obscure book are not sufficient for anything more
than a cursory glance, let alone fuel for sparking interest to advance
research in this area.

Post by a***@yahoo.com
You run into different harmonics when you use wide orbs. You can easily
overlook other aspect patterns. The wide orbed aspects can have a
combination influence of the wide orbed aspect and the actual harmonic
aspect that it is. I guess the combination of those can be confused and
stressful like 2 people fighting over the steering wheel and arguing
who is the better driver.

I believe blending delineations can work well if one uses sound
judgment when doing it.

Post by a***@yahoo.com
page 113 of HOROSCOPE SYMBOLS by Robert Hand
Though we do not yet know quite what do do with it in practical
work,recent research into harmonics has raised another consideration
about orbs. The work of John Addey and others makes it appear that
wide-orbed aspects differ qualitatively as well as quantitatively from
close-orbed aspects. Thus a square of 96 degrees may have nature quite
different from a square of exactly 90 degrees, because whereas 90
degrees is based on the fourth harmonic,96 degrees is based on the
fifteenth harmonic(4 x 360 degrees/15 = 96 degrees). Much research
remains to be done,however,before we can use this in practical chart
delineation.

I couldn't agree more with the last sentence above, which is central to
this issue. Without a substantial body of research and universal
acceptance, most harmonic aspects will remain in obscurity, seldom
applied but by a few pioneering spirits such as yourself.

Post by a***@yahoo.com
I can see My Moon square Neptune with 1'22 orb being an actual square.
I can see my Moon square Saturn with 1'58 being an an actual square. I
definitely feel them as a square,and they do form a t-square.
Therefore,I have Moon oppose Saturn/Neptune midpoint with 17 minutes of
arc. However,I wouldn't view my Mercury square Mars with over 7 degrees
to be a square at all. It's a triundecile and part of my 11th harmonic
aspect pattern with Ascendant,Saturn,and Uranus. Astrologers would use
wide orbed configurations,but those might not even be true
configurations. Also there could be midpoint configuration that helps
them relate to the aspect pattern. opposition of 2 points doesn't have
to be in orb to square another point. There can be wide separation of A
point to C and a wide applying of B to C so that A/B=C.

Not that I'm disagreeing with the above paragraph; there is good logic
there, but what does Mercury triundecile Mars mean to you?

Post by a***@yahoo.com
I believe that looking at the harmonic chart can help see if you
actually have that aspect in the 1st harmonic chart.
For instance, to see if I actually have a biquintile(5th harmonic) in
my 1st harmonic chart,I would check my 5th harmonic chart to see if I
have any conjunctions in that chart. 5th harmonic aspects in 1st
harmonic chart appear as conjunctions in 5th harmonic chart. If they
appear as conjunction in 5th harmonic,then they actually are in
biquintile. I am not sure about the orbs yet. I read that harmonic orbs
are different from conjunction regular orbs in 1st harmonic chart. I
read that they can be considerably wider than in a 1st harmonic chart.
I was reading that it can be past 15 degrees. I have Sun trine(3rd
harmonic) Moon with 2'10 orb that appears Sun conjunct Moon with 6'28
orb in the 3rd harmonic. It seems it's multiplying the harmonic number
with the orb to get the orb in the harmonic chart. I have Moon
square(4th harmonic) Neptune with 1'22 orb, and it appears as Moon conj
Neptune with 5'31 orb in the 4th harmonic chart. Trines are tricky too.
Trine is also trinovile. A trine within 2 degree orb will appear as a
conjunction in 9th harmonic chart. My girlfriend's Sun trine Uranus
with 14 minutes of arc appear as Sun conjunct Uranus with 2'07 orb in
9th harmonic chart. Her Sun trine Jupiter with 1'41 orb appear as Sun
conjunct Jupiter with around 15 degree orb in 9th harmonic. BTW..If a
synastry involves trines 2 degrees and less,they form conjunctions in
9th harmonic chart. My girlfriend's Venus trines my Ascendant with 3
minutes of arc. In our 9th harmonic chart synastry,her Venus conjuncts
my Ascendant with 29 minutes of arc. 9th harmonic chart is used for
marriage in Vedic Astrology. It's called the navamsha.

OOC, how did you create a 9th harmonic synastry chart? Did you take two
9th harmonic charts and then place them in a bi-wheel, or something
else?

Interesting information regarding harmonic charts. I have a book on
harmonic charts and even though I found some of the information it
contained very interesting, I was never able to practically apply it or
synthesize it in my work.

Post by a***@yahoo.com
I can't wait to receive my book SABIAN ASPECT ORBS....It has so much
stuff on harmonic aspects.

Let us know what's in the book. I've been interested in the Sabian and
other degree symbols for a long time.

James

a***@yahoo.com

2006-10-14 20:07:31 UTC

Permalink

James,

I understand. I already know about numerology. I have studied it years
ago. I have a numerology book. I even have a numerology program.
You're not supposed to reduce master numbers and they do count birthday
number. Birthday number is important number that it shows your talents
and gifts that can help you in your lifepath. I know that my lifepath
number is 3 and that my self expression is 5, and add them together my
maturity number is 8. I know that you are supposed to reduce the
birthdate. I wasn't referring to my birthday number as my lifepath
number. Birthday number is an important number.

Also..Decoz also believes that double numbers are important too. He
even has intepretations for them. a 21/3 is different from a
30/3....it has other numbers that make up that vibration. I am a 21/3
myself according to his program. However, I had a numerology report
that calculated my lifepath as 57/3,and said that it was the
understanding heart. Also...my self expression number is 14/5. 14 is
one of the karmic debt numbers.

This is what it says in Decoz's program. I had his book too.

BIRTHDAY

The day you were born bears great significance in understanding who
you are and
where your talents lie. The day of birth indicates some special talent
you possess. It is a
gift to you that will help you along your Life's Path. Your day of
birth is one of your four
core numbers -- the Life Path, Expression, and Heart's Desire being
the other three. It is
the least significant of the four core numbers, but perhaps the most
finite, in that it
reveals a specific ability you possess in a marked degree.

Your Birthday is 29

You are highly intuitive and creative. Raymond, your mind thinks
in pictures. You
seem to draw information and ideas from out of the sky.
Your intuition is your gift, along with a powerful drive to know
the Oneness of all things.
You are so driven by spiritual pursuits that no matter what you do in
life, the world of spirit
and philosophy will be central to your daily behavior. You feel linked
with the larger
universal forces, and nothing will change that.
You have a fine mind and keen insights, but these do not come as a
result of logic or
rational thought. You are more likely to direct your life by
inspiration, rather than by
calculated reflections.
On some level, you know that you are in the hands of destiny, and
that you must
surrender to the higher powers that shape your life. You are usually a
late bloomer. Your
early and middle 30s tend to be years spent in apprenticeship and slow
development.
During this period, you can become frustrated with your progress, or
the apparent lack of
it.
Raymond, you need to develop faith. You are a highly charged
person with much to
do, but you must develop character and sound judgment before you begin
to tap your
true potential. Just as a tree needs roots to grow tall, so, too, do
you need to develop
depth of character in order to begin to expand in the ways you desire
and ultimately
envision.
Your highly developed intuition makes you a wonderful counselor,
healer, or health
practitioner. You have a gift for inspiring people. Many people
admire you without your
knowing it. You are a visionary, and others sense your wisdom.
You are acutely sensitive and easily influenced by your
surroundings. You love beauty
and harmony. You crave social interaction and much attention. You can
be very
emotional, often experiencing extremes of happiness and sadness. You
are usually too
easily hurt.
You get depressed easily and feel the lack of confidence during
times you are in a dark
mood.
Despite your sensitivity, you possess leadership abilities. You
are modest, diplomatic
and polite. You have the ability to persuade, and can be quite
forceful.
Raymond, your high sensitivity to others makes you compassionate,
kind, and gentle.
You have an opportunity for fame and success as long as you do not
pursue either as
your gods. Look for ways to help others and convey a larger message,
with which you
were blessed. This will bring you the material and social fruits you
desire.

I did my 9th harmonic chart and my girlfriend's 9th harmonic chart with
solar fire,and I compared them and looked at them on the aspect list.
I have started researching harmonic synastry including higher harmonic
numbers for deep spiritual connections which aren't necessarily good
nor bad. I am also looking into those harmonics in regards to
neurodivergent conditions

I believe that my Mercury triundecile Mars links my communications and
processes through the 11th harmonic which can be inspiration and
challenges. It is part of an 11th harmonic aspect pattern.

Here are my charts with 11 harmonic aspect patterns.

http://people.tribe.net/2e0a4c30-b134-49f8-ba74-0990f36b0a5f/photos/dfdf3383-b648-4c9d-9c89-6362dfefdb5a

http://people.tribe.net/2e0a4c30-b134-49f8-ba74-0990f36b0a5f/photos/21cb95da-3f17-4086-accc-6f8c4d95056b

You can easily see the midpoint configurations

Uranus conjunct Mercury/Ascendant midpoint
Uranus oppose Mars/Saturn midpoint
Mercury oppose Mars/Saturn midpoint
Saturn oppose Mars/Ascendant midpoint

I am also looking into harmonics in regards to neurodivergent
conditions...especially the 7th and the master number harmonics as well
as 5th harmonic aspects involving outer planets...looking at mERCURY
and Uranus too......Dyslexia has to do with multidimensional thinking.
I am neurodivergent myself with Dyslexia and Dyspraxia.
I do have Mercury in 11th harmonic pattern
I have Mercury biquintile Eris with 6 minutes of arc
I have Sun conj Mercury in 83rd harmonic chart with 39 minutes of arc
I have Uranus conj Midheaven in 29th harmonic chart with 2'12 orb
I have Moon conj Uranus in 47th harmonic chart with '41 orb
I have Uranus conj IC in 74th harmonic chart with '35 orb

You made some good points. But yeah...I already know about
Numerology. There is no need to tell me anything about it. I was just
pointing out that my birthday number is a master number and how it
could correspond with my prominent 11th harmonic chart. There is an
astrologer who looked at a guy's 7th harmonic chart because he had a 7
birthday number. I thought that was interesting. I can't see why a
harmonic can't be important to a person born on a day that corresponds
with that harmonic. This could be the same with the lifepath too. I
have a 3 lifepath, and I do have Sun trine Moon. It makes sense.

I believe that numerology is the key to understanding the harmonics.
The more that I have looked into them,the more they make sense. I am
definitely using them to investigate synastry.

Numerology and Astrology seem very connected.

Just me thinking outside the box with my Dyslexia,Dyspraxia. ;-)

You made good points on the harmonics. Thanks for sharing.

Raymond

Post by James Aronis
Hi,
I noticed your post in the 'Pluto' thread, but I decided to reply to
this new thread instead...

I believe blending delineations can work well if one uses sound
judgment when doing it.

Not that I'm disagreeing with the above paragraph; there is good logic
there, but what does Mercury triundecile Mars mean to you?

OOC, how did you create a 9th harmonic synastry chart? Did you take two
9th harmonic charts and then place them in a bi-wheel, or something
else?
Interesting information regarding harmonic charts. I have a book on
harmonic charts and even though I found some of the information it
contained very interesting, I was never able to practically apply it or
synthesize it in my work.

Post by a***@yahoo.com
I can't wait to receive my book SABIAN ASPECT ORBS....It has so much
stuff on harmonic aspects.

Let us know what's in the book. I've been interested in the Sabian and
other degree symbols for a long time.
James

Ed Falis

2006-10-13 13:40:55 UTC

Permalink

You might find the following article of interest, especially the section
at the bottom on orbs:http://info.esc.net.au/~rodsmith/Introduction.html

a***@yahoo.com

2006-10-14 20:09:22 UTC

Permalink

Hey...I read that one already! Thank you very much though. He made
some good points,but I don't necessarily agree with them.

Raymond

Post by Ed Falis

You might find the following article of interest, especially the section
at the bottom on orbs:http://info.esc.net.au/~rodsmith/Introduction.html