7th house stelliums

[Princeps]

Recently, I find I have been doing a lot of charts for people who have
very populated seventh houses. While all these people definitely have
a lot of relationship karma, none of them seem to be able to have
anything close to a successful relationship.

One woman has six of her planets (including her sun) in the seventh
house. She is in her fifties, has never been married, only briefly
lived with one of her relationships, and is most of the time single.
She asks, "If I have so many planets in my seventh house, how am I
supposed to work on my karma if I am never in a relationship?"

Any thoughts?

[Todd Carnes]

Post by Princeps
Recently, I find I have been doing a lot of charts for people who have
very populated seventh houses. While all these people definitely have
a lot of relationship karma, none of them seem to be able to have
anything close to a successful relationship.
One woman has six of her planets (including her sun) in the seventh
house. She is in her fifties, has never been married, only briefly
lived with one of her relationships, and is most of the time single.
She asks, "If I have so many planets in my seventh house, how am I
supposed to work on my karma if I am never in a relationship?"
Any thoughts?

I'm not much for the "karma' chart stuff but...

Perhaps there are TOO many planets in the 7th and what is indcated is that
she needs to balance her chart by working on the opposite house...i.e.
herself.

Todd

[Jyeshta]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 16:15:09 -0500, "Todd Carnes"

Post by Todd Carnes

Post by Princeps
Recently, I find I have been doing a lot of charts for people who have
very populated seventh houses. While all these people definitely have
a lot of relationship karma, none of them seem to be able to have
anything close to a successful relationship.
One woman has six of her planets (including her sun) in the seventh
house. She is in her fifties, has never been married, only briefly
lived with one of her relationships, and is most of the time single.
She asks, "If I have so many planets in my seventh house, how am I
supposed to work on my karma if I am never in a relationship?"
Any thoughts?

I'm not much for the "karma' chart stuff but...
Perhaps there are TOO many planets in the 7th and what is indcated is that
she needs to balance her chart by working on the opposite house...i.e.
herself.
Todd

Hi Princeps,

Todd makes a good point (although I do tend to believe in karma).

Additionally, I've noticed that same thing about people with a
heavy 7th house emphasis - great difficulty forming
relationships. But in those charts I've seen, there have been
afflictions to either luminaries, or personal planets, from
squares to Saturn or the outer planets. (I know Todd doesn't use
the outers, but I still do in natal charts.)

Gail

[I. R. Heller]

Post by Jyeshta
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 16:15:09 -0500, "Todd Carnes"

Post by Todd Carnes

Post by Princeps
Recently, I find I have been doing a lot of charts for people who have
very populated seventh houses. While all these people definitely have
a lot of relationship karma, none of them seem to be able to have
anything close to a successful relationship.
One woman has six of her planets (including her sun) in the seventh
house. She is in her fifties, has never been married, only briefly
lived with one of her relationships, and is most of the time single.
She asks, "If I have so many planets in my seventh house, how am I
supposed to work on my karma if I am never in a relationship?"
Any thoughts?

I'm not much for the "karma' chart stuff but...
Perhaps there are TOO many planets in the 7th and what is indcated is that
she needs to balance her chart by working on the opposite house...i.e.
herself.
Todd

Hi Princeps,
Todd makes a good point (although I do tend to believe in karma).
Additionally, I've noticed that same thing about people with a
heavy 7th house emphasis - great difficulty forming
relationships. But in those charts I've seen, there have been
afflictions to either luminaries, or personal planets, from
squares to Saturn or the outer planets. (I know Todd doesn't use
the outers, but I still do in natal charts.)
Gail

Hello Gail and Todd, et al :-)
don´t you think that "not using the outers" is like not using electricity ??
which also was unknown until not too long ago in our history.
Should we not use *every* new discovery which makes our lives easier ??
in this case the interpretation of certain positions. - -
Just a thought . . .
Have a nice weekend.
Be well,
I.R.Heller

[Jyeshta]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 02:28:14 -0500, "I. R. Heller"

Post by I. R. Heller
Hello Gail and Todd, et al :-)
don´t you think that "not using the outers" is like not using electricity ??
which also was unknown until not too long ago in our history.
Should we not use *every* new discovery which makes our lives easier ??
in this case the interpretation of certain positions. - -

Yes, that is my feeling. But I do understand the reluctance of
the people who are deeply into ancient or classical practices
because the systems and techniques are exceedingly rich and
intricate and, in most cases, the ancient "7" (along with the
fixed stars in electional and mundane work) serve fine to handle
most of the work that comes up.

The ancient "7" create a symmetry that is lost by the use of the
outers (or asteroids) to rule signs, and I stopped using the
outers to rule signs at least ten years ago.

But I definitely use the outers in natal and predictive work, and
always will.

Post by I. R. Heller
Just a thought . . .
Have a nice weekend.
Be well,
I.R.Heller

[astropophageous]

Post by Todd Carnes

Post by Princeps
Recently, I find I have been doing a lot of charts for people who have
very populated seventh houses. While all these people definitely have
a lot of relationship karma, none of them seem to be able to have
anything close to a successful relationship.
One woman has six of her planets (including her sun) in the seventh
house. She is in her fifties, has never been married, only briefly
lived with one of her relationships, and is most of the time single.
She asks, "If I have so many planets in my seventh house, how am I
supposed to work on my karma if I am never in a relationship?"
Any thoughts?

I'm not much for the "karma' chart stuff but...
Perhaps there are TOO many planets in the 7th and what is indcated is that
she needs to balance her chart by working on the opposite house...i.e.
herself.
Todd

Me, I am not much for the "balancing your chart"stuff. :)
I go from what I perceive.
Many planets in a house mean a lot of activity in that house, isn't it ?
IMOVHO (in my own very humble opinion) "working on the opposite house" is
not based on any actual reality. The house with a lot of planets is where
it's happening, not the empty house. And where a lot of your life's activity
is focused, obviously there's work to be done.

It seems strange this woman has never been married, since her seventh house
is so important, but for one thing, the Sun in a woman's chart also
signifies the father, not just the husband, and for another thing, there can
be a lot of activity going on "replacing", in a sense, a normal marriage.
Many things may happen continously, making ongoing relationships break up
and form again, i.e.

If we don't know anything about those planets' aspects, there isn't much we
can tell, is there ? At least not as far as I am concerned, who, as it is
well known, am not an astrologer worth his salt :)

Astropophageous

[Princeps]

I should clarify. When I say 'karma,' I simply mean issues, or that
the person is bothered enough by their situation in the given area
(the seventh house) to feel that he or she has to work on it, or try
and make it better.

I went back and looked at the charts I have done recently, and
actually there are only three with heavy seventh house emphasis. All
three are very concerned with, "Where is my long term relationship?"
All three also become overly involved in their relationships when they
do have them, smothering the other person, becoming obsessed, and soon
driving the partner away. In this way, you could definitely say, and I
have said to them, that they need to focus more on themselves (the
opposite / Ascendant), and balance, so to speak.

Chart 1 is the female with six planets in the seventh. Cancer
Descendant. Venus conjunct Uranus both conjunct the Descendant.
Mercury, Mars, Pluto, and the Sun all also in the seventh house. (The
Venus Uranus Descendant conjunction is opposed by the Moon in the
12th, and all of these square a Saturn / Neptune conjunction. Various
harmonious aspects. The Sun, more or less unaspected.) This woman is
very much involved in helping "others." I think that is a very good
point, however she has only in the past few years become deeply
involved in this way. In the past, she was an independent saleswoman.

Chart 2 is a male with a Gemini Descendant. Saturn conjunct the
Descendant. Sun and Mercury also in the seventh house. He is not very
involved with helping others.

Chart 3 is a female, Gemini Descendant. Mars conjunct the Descendant.
Mercury, the Sun, Venus, and Uranus all in the seventh house. Her
profession has been helping others her whole adult life.

I thank you all for the input. This has come up enough times recently
to really make me wonder about it.

All three of these people have not been able to maintain a long term
relationship. Maybe it is unfair to put them all together in a group.
Every chart is different.

[Jyeshta]

Post by Princeps
I should clarify. When I say 'karma,' I simply mean issues, or that
the person is bothered enough by their situation in the given area
(the seventh house) to feel that he or she has to work on it, or try
and make it better.
I went back and looked at the charts I have done recently, and
actually there are only three with heavy seventh house emphasis. All
three are very concerned with, "Where is my long term relationship?"
All three also become overly involved in their relationships when they
do have them, smothering the other person, becoming obsessed, and soon
driving the partner away. In this way, you could definitely say, and I
have said to them, that they need to focus more on themselves (the
opposite / Ascendant), and balance, so to speak.
Chart 1 is the female with six planets in the seventh. Cancer
Descendant. Venus conjunct Uranus both conjunct the Descendant.
Mercury, Mars, Pluto, and the Sun all also in the seventh house. (The
Venus Uranus Descendant conjunction is opposed by the Moon in the
12th, and all of these square a Saturn / Neptune conjunction. Various
harmonious aspects. The Sun, more or less unaspected.) This woman is
very much involved in helping "others." I think that is a very good
point, however she has only in the past few years become deeply
involved in this way. In the past, she was an independent saleswoman.
Chart 2 is a male with a Gemini Descendant. Saturn conjunct the
Descendant. Sun and Mercury also in the seventh house. He is not very
involved with helping others.
Chart 3 is a female, Gemini Descendant. Mars conjunct the Descendant.
Mercury, the Sun, Venus, and Uranus all in the seventh house. Her
profession has been helping others her whole adult life.
I thank you all for the input. This has come up enough times recently
to really make me wonder about it.
All three of these people have not been able to maintain a long term
relationship. Maybe it is unfair to put them all together in a group.
Every chart is different.

I'm not a Christian (and I don't even believe in a God that's
separate from Creation), but I think the apostle, Paul, had a
point when he advised people not to marry, unless they felt truly
compelled to.

Marriage types of relationships can be denied to people for all
sorts of reasons - and as you say, every chart is different
(although the 3 you cite above certainly seem to have afflicted
7th houses).

I don't think being single is a problem at all. I don't think
solitude is a bad thing. These can help a person, even one with
a loaded 7th house, move forward on a path of self-discovery and
self-awareness. One doesn't need a partner in order to do this,
although psychology usually teaches otherwise (that the partner
serves as a mirror through which each work through their issues).

There does need to be an expression of love, but this can
manifest in any number of ways not limited to having a spouse or
life-partner.

Thank you for a very interesting topic.

Gail

[Jyeshta]

Post by Princeps
Recently, I find I have been doing a lot of charts for people who have
very populated seventh houses. While all these people definitely have
a lot of relationship karma, none of them seem to be able to have
anything close to a successful relationship.
One woman has six of her planets (including her sun) in the seventh
house. She is in her fifties, has never been married, only briefly
lived with one of her relationships, and is most of the time single.
She asks, "If I have so many planets in my seventh house, how am I
supposed to work on my karma if I am never in a relationship?"
Any thoughts?

Hi again, Princeps,

To answer more directly, first of all, I consider planets in the
6th, 7th, and 8th houses to be problematic. They're "other"
oriented - in the western hemisphere of the chart (among other
difficulties they can and do present).

This woman you speak of does not necessarily have to have a
marriage type of relationship in order to work on her karma. It
can be a matter of simply being involved in the lives and
processes of others who are not necessarily close to her. For
example, she might be able to find some way to be of assistance
to others in any capacity in which she feels herself best suited.

But the key word here is "others", rather than relationships.
I'd be willing to bet she is already doing something of the sort
anyway. So you could tell her she's working through her karma
just fine doing what she's already doing, or by beginning to do
what I suggested above.

This is the modern psychological[*1] way in which I would
approach a question such as this, and I feel there is a great
deal of worth and validity in much of modern astrology - I'm
saying this because I've resumed my study of classical astrology
and I'm finding a sort of disdain and disregard among the people
who study and practice classical astrology for the modern
approaches of the 20th century. It's disturbing, but to each hir
own, I guess. No matter how much or how long or how hard I study
classical astrology, I will never abandon that which I've already
learned from the modern approaches and found to be tried and
true.

[*1 - in classical astrology, the 7th house and Descendant have
much more sinister meanings in nativities. It was considered the
house of death, perhaps because it opposes the house of life, the
1st house and Ascendant. In any case, while I'd keep this in
mind, I would only really tell someone that their focus is not to
be on hirself, but on others (which is a sort of death to the
persona, but I wouldn't mention that part). I realize this is a
different take on the matter than what Todd suggested.]

Gail

[Todd Carnes]

Post by Jyeshta

Post by Princeps
Recently, I find I have been doing a lot of charts for people who have
very populated seventh houses. While all these people definitely have
a lot of relationship karma, none of them seem to be able to have
anything close to a successful relationship.
One woman has six of her planets (including her sun) in the seventh
house. She is in her fifties, has never been married, only briefly
lived with one of her relationships, and is most of the time single.
She asks, "If I have so many planets in my seventh house, how am I
supposed to work on my karma if I am never in a relationship?"
Any thoughts?

Hi again, Princeps,
To answer more directly, first of all, I consider planets in the
6th, 7th, and 8th houses to be problematic. They're "other"
oriented - in the western hemisphere of the chart (among other
difficulties they can and do present).
This woman you speak of does not necessarily have to have a
marriage type of relationship in order to work on her karma. It
can be a matter of simply being involved in the lives and
processes of others who are not necessarily close to her. For
example, she might be able to find some way to be of assistance
to others in any capacity in which she feels herself best suited.
But the key word here is "others", rather than relationships.
I'd be willing to bet she is already doing something of the sort
anyway. So you could tell her she's working through her karma
just fine doing what she's already doing, or by beginning to do
what I suggested above.
This is the modern psychological[*1] way in which I would
approach a question such as this, and I feel there is a great
deal of worth and validity in much of modern astrology - I'm
saying this because I've resumed my study of classical astrology
and I'm finding a sort of disdain and disregard among the people
who study and practice classical astrology for the modern
approaches of the 20th century. It's disturbing, but to each hir
own, I guess. No matter how much or how long or how hard I study
classical astrology, I will never abandon that which I've already
learned from the modern approaches and found to be tried and
true.
[*1 - in classical astrology, the 7th house and Descendant have
much more sinister meanings in nativities. It was considered the
house of death, perhaps because it opposes the house of life, the
1st house and Ascendant. In any case, while I'd keep this in
mind, I would only really tell someone that their focus is not to
be on hirself, but on others (which is a sort of death to the
persona, but I wouldn't mention that part). I realize this is a
different take on the matter than what Todd suggested.]
Gail

Well... working on one's personal issues (1st house) generally leads one to
have better relations with others (7th house).

Does it not? :)

Todd

[Jyeshta]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 20:02:55 -0500, "Todd Carnes"

Post by Todd Carnes

Post by Jyeshta

Post by Princeps
Recently, I find I have been doing a lot of charts for people who have
very populated seventh houses. While all these people definitely have
a lot of relationship karma, none of them seem to be able to have
anything close to a successful relationship.
One woman has six of her planets (including her sun) in the seventh
house. She is in her fifties, has never been married, only briefly
lived with one of her relationships, and is most of the time single.
She asks, "If I have so many planets in my seventh house, how am I
supposed to work on my karma if I am never in a relationship?"
Any thoughts?

Hi again, Princeps,
To answer more directly, first of all, I consider planets in the
6th, 7th, and 8th houses to be problematic. They're "other"
oriented - in the western hemisphere of the chart (among other
difficulties they can and do present).
This woman you speak of does not necessarily have to have a
marriage type of relationship in order to work on her karma. It
can be a matter of simply being involved in the lives and
processes of others who are not necessarily close to her. For
example, she might be able to find some way to be of assistance
to others in any capacity in which she feels herself best suited.
But the key word here is "others", rather than relationships.
I'd be willing to bet she is already doing something of the sort
anyway. So you could tell her she's working through her karma
just fine doing what she's already doing, or by beginning to do
what I suggested above.
This is the modern psychological[*1] way in which I would
approach a question such as this, and I feel there is a great
deal of worth and validity in much of modern astrology - I'm
saying this because I've resumed my study of classical astrology
and I'm finding a sort of disdain and disregard among the people
who study and practice classical astrology for the modern
approaches of the 20th century. It's disturbing, but to each hir
own, I guess. No matter how much or how long or how hard I study
classical astrology, I will never abandon that which I've already
learned from the modern approaches and found to be tried and
true.
[*1 - in classical astrology, the 7th house and Descendant have
much more sinister meanings in nativities. It was considered the
house of death, perhaps because it opposes the house of life, the
1st house and Ascendant. In any case, while I'd keep this in
mind, I would only really tell someone that their focus is not to
be on hirself, but on others (which is a sort of death to the
persona, but I wouldn't mention that part). I realize this is a
different take on the matter than what Todd suggested.]
Gail

Well... working on one's personal issues (1st house) generally leads one to
have better relations with others (7th house).
Does it not? :)
Todd

Yes, but sometimes that simply isn't what a person can, will, or
even should do (my opinion).

For example, Mother Theresa (I don't have her chart, although I
remember seeing her birth date, at least, somewhere) didn't seem
to work on any personal issues she may have had, but chose to
work on behalf of others, only.

Gail

[I. R. Heller]

Hello Gail:
only one short note:
I absolutely *love* your new (or adopted) expression of
"hir own" and "hirself", it just makes sense.
Should become the word of the year (if it hasn´t already :)
If you don´t mind, I´ll be using it from now on.
On this note,
be well,
I.R.H.

Post by Jyeshta

Post by Princeps
Recently, I find I have been doing a lot of charts for people who have
very populated seventh houses. While all these people definitely have
a lot of relationship karma, none of them seem to be able to have
anything close to a successful relationship.
One woman has six of her planets (including her sun) in the seventh
house. She is in her fifties, has never been married, only briefly
lived with one of her relationships, and is most of the time single.
She asks, "If I have so many planets in my seventh house, how am I
supposed to work on my karma if I am never in a relationship?"
Any thoughts?

Hi again, Princeps,
To answer more directly, first of all, I consider planets in the
6th, 7th, and 8th houses to be problematic. They're "other"
oriented - in the western hemisphere of the chart (among other
difficulties they can and do present).
This woman you speak of does not necessarily have to have a
marriage type of relationship in order to work on her karma. It
can be a matter of simply being involved in the lives and
processes of others who are not necessarily close to her. For
example, she might be able to find some way to be of assistance
to others in any capacity in which she feels herself best suited.
But the key word here is "others", rather than relationships.
I'd be willing to bet she is already doing something of the sort
anyway. So you could tell her she's working through her karma
just fine doing what she's already doing, or by beginning to do
what I suggested above.
This is the modern psychological[*1] way in which I would
approach a question such as this, and I feel there is a great
deal of worth and validity in much of modern astrology - I'm
saying this because I've resumed my study of classical astrology
and I'm finding a sort of disdain and disregard among the people
who study and practice classical astrology for the modern
approaches of the 20th century. It's disturbing, but to each hir
own, I guess. No matter how much or how long or how hard I study
classical astrology, I will never abandon that which I've already
learned from the modern approaches and found to be tried and
true.
[*1 - in classical astrology, the 7th house and Descendant have
much more sinister meanings in nativities. It was considered the
house of death, perhaps because it opposes the house of life, the
1st house and Ascendant. In any case, while I'd keep this in
mind, I would only really tell someone that their focus is not to
be on hirself, but on others (which is a sort of death to the
persona, but I wouldn't mention that part). I realize this is a
different take on the matter than what Todd suggested.]
Gail

[Jyeshta]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 02:27:40 -0500, "I. R. Heller"

Post by I. R. Heller
I absolutely *love* your new (or adopted) expression of
"hir own" and "hirself", it just makes sense.
Should become the word of the year (if it hasn´t already :)
If you don´t mind, I´ll be using it from now on.
On this note,
be well,
I.R.H.

Hi I.R.,

If I remember correctly, it was Timothy Leary who coined that
word as a gender neutral pronoun (which the English language
needs for purposes of simplicity, clarity, and fluidity). So I
certainly can't take credit for it. :-)

Gail