elementary star signs 2009

[Hermes]

Hi everybody,

In the following I would like to publish my exposition of the
twelve star signs of the zodiac in terms of a very simple
model that I discovered in winter 2001. The model is a little
bit abstract (I am a physicist), but as it seems, it is
gradually becoming more amenable to astrologers... :)

If you want to read it with the four modest color illustrations,
I recommend to also look at the text on my web site:

http://www.exactphilosophy.net/astro.html

But first some deeper astrological background info:

The idea for the model came to me when the sun was in Aquarius in 2001
and I wrote it down in the following year, which relates it, of
course,
to the Saturn-Pluto cycle (opposition in that case). My idea was
mostly
influenced by Liz Greene's writings of the early 1980s, in particular
_The Astrology of Fate_ (Weiser, 1984), which was hence likely written
under a Saturn-Pluto conjunction. But it does not end there: I would
probably never have gotten involved with astrology, had I not fallen
in
love with a Czech girl in 1982 (conjunction) who was born in March
1965
with a close Saturn-Pluto opposition in Pisces-Virgo. That opposition
of the mid 1960s was also when Liz Greene started to do astrology:

* During the winter break of my third year in university I happened
* to be in Boston, Massachusetts, where I made the acquaintance of
* someone who was interested in astrology and esoteric philosophy.
* At the time I had neither experience nor interest in such things,
* but was preoccupied with confusion about my own direction - whether
* to pursue psychology or a career in scenic and costume design for
* the theatre. I was 'persuaded', unwillingly and with a certain
* resentment, to make a visit to my acquaintance's astrologer - who
* turned out to be Isabel Hickey, then resident in Boston but as yet
* unknown in the larger astrological world.
-- Liz Greene, The Astrology of Fate

This rings particularly with me, since the mentioned Czech girl
started
to study medicine in Zurich around 1990, but then studying stage
design
in Prague in the 1990s, which rings particularly with the fact that
both
women have the n.node around 20 Gemini, hence such a duality in
destiny
makes a lot of sense. The mutuable axes are very strong in the charts
of
all 3 women (the 3rd being Isabel Hickey).

Czech woman: March 1965 (sun in Pisces, moon in Aries)
Liz Greene: 4 September 1946 at 13:01, Englewood NJ, 40n54,
73w59*
Isabel Hickey: 19 August 1903 at 12:30, Brookline MA, 42n20, 71w07*
* Source: astrodatabank

Also the moment when Liz Greene met Isabel Hickey, namely the station
of
Jupiter on Liz Greene's Uranus (exact station 15 Feb 1966) has a
strong
emphasis on the mutable axes and, of course, a Saturn-Pluto
opposition.
Liz Greene was born with a (loose) conjunction and, of course, now
today
is a close incoming square.

More could be analyzed, but let me leave it essentially at that.

One more date, namely the finalization of the first document that
describes my elementary model of the star signs (note the nodes!):

discoveries: 5 March 2002 at 00:05, Adliswil, Switzerland
publication: 20 June 2002 at 09:00, Adliswil, Switzerland

-- start --

elementary star signs

Reveals an interesting structure in the signs of the western zodiac,
of
which astonishingly nobody is aware.

Leo and Fire Signs

* But the lion is a stage in a process, as Jung suggests; and it
* is this process or pattern which brings us into the sphere of
* the 'fate' of Leo. It would seem [...] that there is an
* alchemical work to be performed. The Lion is not permitted to
* remain in its bestial form, but must give way to something
* other.
-- Liz Greene, The Astrology of Fate

In my model, Leo's transformation mentioned in the above quote is
between elements: earth is turned by fire to air.

[image]

The archetypal image is simply a burning fire that transforms wood
(earth) to smoke (air). More precisely, Aries is a young fire, made
mainly of earth, with not much fire, yet, and almost no air, yet.
Sagittarius, in turn, is an old fire, consisting mainly of air, with
not
much fire remaining and almost no earth left. Leo is in between, a
fire
at its peak, with a lot of fire, and less but mutually about equal
amounts of earth and air.

Astonishingly, this simple model is by far not simplistic.

Let me visit a few themes related to Leo and the fire signs, before
exposing the model in a bit more structured way, while also extending
it
to all signs and elements.

As a primary source for themes and myths, I will use what Liz Greene
associates with star signs in The Astrology of Fate (Weiser, 1984), in
chapter 8, Myth and the Zodiac. Unless otherwise mentioned, quotes
will
be from there.

A central theme in the story of Parsifal, and thus also for Leo, is
the
wound of the fisher king. Young Parsifal first fails to ask the right
question and only after much work manages to heal the king and take
his
place.

In my model, the wound of the fisher king is simply the human body
(earth) that is wounded by the fire of life, as any human body is
doomed
to die one day. Only what is learned in life, can be formulated in
words
(air) and can thus be passed on to later generations, thus becomes
immortal in a way. So there is a transformation from mortal body to
immortal soul, or a transition animal->human/king->god.

This explains why conscious awareness (air) is such an important thing
to learn for Parsifal. The wound of the fisher king is in the lower
part
of his body, afflicting his power to reproduce, thus related to the
more
instinctive and animal-like side of the king (earth).

While the wound of the fisher king can be healed, the wound in a piece
of mythology associated with Sagittarius, cannot: The centaur Cheiron
was accidentally injured by his friend Hercules with a poisoned arrow
in
the lower part of his body. But since Cheiron is immortal, he cannot
die. This fits very well with the model, where the fire has burned
almost down, i.e. the earth (human body) is gone, and only knowledge
and
wisdom remain.

It is also fitting that the wound is inflicted by Hercules, who was
usually wearing a lion's pelt. Cheiron in the end consciously choses
to
trade his immortality for releasing Prometheus from Hades.

Some cookbook attributes of the fire signs: Aries is considered to be
rather secretive, while Sagittarius is known for his openness, and Leo
is likely somewhere in between, sometimes being open and sometimes
not.
This fits with decreasing mortality (less earth). What damage can
others
do to you if most of you has become immortal (air) anyway. Related to
that is also the theme of generosity, which is apparently also
increasing from Aries to Sagittarius, in the model for the same
reason.

The sun god Apollo "is an image of the power of consciousness, vested
in
it by the Self, which breaks the 'curse'". A family curse can be seen
as
rooted in earth, in the tree of ancestors, in physical reproduction.
Transforming this inheritance by fire to consciousness (air) frees one
from the curse, as knowledge and wisdom can be freely transmitted to
anybody, independently of physical relations. Say, if you write a
book,
that book would be made of trees (earth), but if it reaches many
readers, might still transcend its matter by far.

Let me leave it at that for the fire signs for the moment. I will
explore such themes in more detail for each fire sign further below. I
hope you will agree in the end that this simple model is in many
respects a revelation, a marvelous tool for doing astrology, useful
for
beginners as well as for deep and broad explorations of psyche and
life.

There is actually more to this, but let me first expose my model for
the
other signs and elements.

Libra and Air Signs

In my model, air signs are different stages in a transition
fire-air-water. The archetypal image is a cloud (air) which emits both
lightning (fire) and rain (water):

[image]

Gemini is a young thunderstorm, with lots of lightning and thunder,
but
little rain, yet. In contrast, Aquarius is an old thunderstorm, with
essentially only rain left. Libra is in between.

Libra's dilemma of choice is an abstract one: There is no earth
involved
in the above model. So Paris was neither attracted by Hera's offer of
great literal possessions nor by Athene's offer to "make him
victorious
in all his battles", but chose Aphrodite's promise of the love of
Helena. Since Libra is in the middle of a transition fire-air-water,
the
choice usually is the latter, water, thus emotions, love.

There is a strive for clarity in the air signs. Gemini is like a child
in its quick and random motion, like flames or lightning (fire), by
which the child learns to understand the world by looking at
everything
from all possible angles. Take a coin for example. What the eye
literally sees (fire) is just different images, front face, back face,
side view. Only if you combine these images mentally in your head
(air),
does an entity coin, come to be.

Or take Prometheus, who stole fire from the gods to give it to
humanity.
The universal love of Aquarius towards humanity, is like the water in
the rain that rains equally on everybody and when it forms a lake, it
evens out hills and valleys, improving equality among mortals.

So, the evolution is from learning to teaching, from quickness to
constancy, and from many views to a unified one, which is transparent
like water.

Libra's deep insights, probably due to their abstractness and thus
ignorance of the status quo (earth), often lead to turmoil, like in
the
Troyan War or Teiresias' fate: By his answer about a rather literal
question, namely whether women or men have more fun during sex, "Hera
was so exasperated [...] that she struck [him] blind", while Zeus
granted him "inner sight and the ability to understand the prophetic
language of the birds". Not astonishingly, in light of the model, both
gods agreed that his external vision (fire) had to go in order to give
him deeper insights.

Scorpio and Water Signs

In my model, water signs are different stages in a transition
earth-water-air. The archetypal image is a river:

[image]

Cancer is a source and young river emerging from the mountains, maybe
from a glacier (earth), and has not merged with much other waters. As
the water flows down, it merges with more and more rivers and becomes
a
stream: Scorpio. Finally, Pisces is the sea, into which practically
all
rivers flow and from which the water eventually evaporates again
(air).

So, the transition is, like for the fire signs, from earth to air, but
this time caused by a passive, female element. The river that flows
down
to the sea is more fated than fire, since it is passive, it cannot
resist the movement.

Protection is a strong need for Cancer, but since there is a
transition
to water, also the fight for independence from its roots (earth) is an
important theme. "This deeply mystical linking of Cancer with the very
seed and source of life connects it not only with the primordial
Mother,
but with the Father as well [...]". Hera ordered a crab to bite
Hercules
into his ankle while he was fighting the Hydra in the swamps. Both the
crab, who got his place as a constellation for his obedience to Hera,
and Hercules ("glory of Hera") are part of the theme, as is also the
Hydra and the swamps, by the way.

Scorpio is already more open than Cancer, but still suspicious and
somewhat afraid to be hurt. "[...] I can see a great deal of of
Scorpion's daimon, which pulls violently both upwards and downwards
yet
which [...] must confront and ultimately learn to live with that vital
and terrifying image of instinctal life [...]". The conflict between
moving up and down is in the model between earth and air, or between
source and sea, and the way to go is ultimately down, hence conscious
evolution (air) is important.

Taoist philosopher Chuang Tzu describes in the famous Autumn Floods
how
a river feels so strong and important and gaining power from the
smaller
rivers that flow into it. When the river arrives at the sea, this all
changes, as the river realizes that size is relative, that he is much
smaller than the sea. Any influences that flow into the river
symbolically broaden the number of different views that one
incorporates, until in the end, in the sea, all opinions and views
occur
with similar magnitude: It has all become relative.

Again, this is, of course, very far from a complete and unbiased
description of the water signs, but, once more, I hope that it has
become clear how useful my elementary model can be for investigating
such themes, even if looking much deeper into the soul than I did
here...

Virgo and Earth Signs

In my model, earth signs are different stages in a transition
fire-earth-water. The archetypal image is a tree:

[image]

Taurus is mainly made of fire, focusses on the directly visible, but
short-lived beauties of the tree, the leaves and flowers that grow
with
the power of the sun (fire). Capricorn is mainly made of water,
restrains himself to the parts of the tree that persist across seasons
and which keep it from falling down, namely trunk and roots, which
feed
it with water and the substances diluted in it.

Virgo is in between, not sure which to chose: Beauty or structure ?
This
solves the riddle that even though Virgo is often depicted as being
very
concerned about order, many Virgos do not keep their lives and homes
in
strict order. It is Virgo for whom order is an issue, for Capricorn it
is a given and for Taurus is not that important, except a bit, as
Taurus
is transforming from fire to earth.

Associated with beauty-order is also living vs. planning. Taurus
enjoys
the moment, but plans little, while Capricorn often keeps both an eye
on
the present and on possible future paths. Virgo is again in between.

The abduction of Persephone by Hades fits the model very well:
Persephone is collecting flowers, looking at the sunny (fire) side of
life, but she is already starting to look down to earth, probably at
least unconsciously starting to wonder about how things work, what
makes
the flowers grow, etc. The ground opens up and Hades abducts her and
makes her his wife, the queen of the underworld.

Hades/Pluto is ruler of Scorpio, the middle water sign, the one made
mainly of water. So, Hades does symbolize the water towards which
Virgo
is evolving in the model.

"Demeter and Persephone form a unity, the paradox of woman as a maiden
and a mother". The tree with its roots symbolizes also the
generational
tree. Literally speaking (earth), what emerges out of a woman's womb
can
be a man or a woman, but men apparently disappear like leaves or fruit
from the tree, while women often bifurcate the tree further if they
have
children. Therefore such identification is a natural (earthy) thing
for
women.

The Model

Let me summarize the model in a table:

element qualities image transition
fire hot+dry fire earth-fire-air
air wet+hot cloud fire-air-water
water cold+wet river earth-water-air
earth dry+cold tree fire-earth-water

The listed qualities are according to Aristotle's views. According to
Aristotle, elements can only transform by changing one of the
qualities.
For example, if you make fire cold, you transform hot+dry to cold+dry,
which is earth. So the elements go in a cycle fire-air-water-earth-
fire.

As you can see, the transitions proposed in my model are all parts of
Aristotle's cycle.

Also interesting is that the transition for each element starts with a
dry element (earth or fire) and ends with a wet one (air or water).
This
can be associated with the older age of star signs later in the
zodiac.
To Aries, for example, a tree is often just a tree, just what the eye
can see (fire). To Sagittarius, in contrast, a tree is often "Maya",
just an illusion (air). It is probably an experience of life that not
everything is what it appears to be at first.

What I only mentioned briefly with Libra and the air signs is that
there
is always one element missing in each transition. Thus, while Libra
lacks realism in judgement, Leo lacks compassion, Scorpio imagination
and Virgo reason (even despite the Mercury ruler).

Where do you go from here ? Read the more detailed explorations of the
12 star signs below and look at the leads, or make your own
investigations, revisit your favorite themes or the ones that you
always
felt that they do not fit completely, and look at them from the point
of
view of the model which has just been presented. There is so much to
explore and I hope and believe that all these considerations will
rather
enhance than reduce the richness of the zodiac.

One more thing should be mentioned: Since apparently nobody has been
aware of this simple structure, at least not in the previous two
thousand years or so, the existence of this structure in what people
say
about star signs, makes it rather unlikely that there is nothing to
astrology, that it would just be the illusion of only a few, or many,
delusional individuals, without any connection to reality.

In fact, such a simple model could, of course, come in very handy when
it comes to proving astrology in quantitative scientific experiments.
What is usually ideal in science, is a simple model that nonetheless
spans the whole space of possibilities, i.e. is simple, but not
simplistic.

* It can scarcely be denied that the supreme goal of all theory is
* to make the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as
* possible without having to surrender the adequate representation
* of a single datum of experience.
-- Albert Einstein

Myth and the Zodiac

In the following, I will simply revisit all themes and myths that Liz
Greene relates to the star signs in chapter 8, Myth and the Zodiac, of
The Astrology of Fate.

I will compare each theme with my elementary model of the star signs.
Often that will simply mean that I will relate an expression that Liz
Greene uses (or quotes) directly to the corresponding element, using
common associations, like these:

fire energy of life, light, sun, vision, imagination, creativity
air mind, logic, spirit, abstraction, rationality, consciousness
water feelings, love, beauty, fate, collective, unconscious, river
earth physical reality, body, land, mother nature, tree

For example, when Liz Greene relates "sunlit" to Venus' sexuality when
talking about Taurus, I will associate that with the element fire that
Taurus is mainly made of in the model. But let me start the journey...

Aries

In the model, Aries is a young fire, made mainly of earth, with little
fire and air, yet:

[image]

Amun Liz Greene starts by associating Aries with the ram headed
ancient
Egyptian god Amun, mentions that his name means "the hidden one" and
uses attributes like "primeval" and "the force behind the invisible
wind".

Let me start to analyze with "wind", a form of air. Air is part of the
image of a burning fire in two ways: As the smoke that emerges, but
air
is also needed to fuel the fire. Especially when starting a fire one
has
often to blow (wind) quite a bit and also has to protect the fire from
too much wind that might extinguish the small flame.

This associates Aries in the model with wind, and also with the
protection that a young life (fire) needs. Hence Aries' knightly side,
an urge to protect himself and anything weak. With protection often
comes secrecy, reluctance to tell (air) things to others, as a means
to
protect himself and also others. Hence "the hidden one" and the
"invisible" (like air) in the "force" (fire) "behind the invisible
wind"
make sense in terms of the model.

-- end --

It ends here, for the moment. Since I wrote the above in summer 2009,
I have gained quite a bit more clarity about the model (the Saturn-
Pluto square at work, I guess), but it will likely still take a few
more years to write that down in a form that effectively captures
most of the beauty and elementary simplicy of the model...

It is, of course, quite fantastic that Liz Greene managed intuitively
to capture some essential traits like nobody before her, without that
I would not have been able to discover my model. All in all, if you
compare my chart

me: 7 August 1966 at 04:12, Zurich, Switzerland

I do not really fit the mutuable square stuff that much, my connection
to the Czech woman is more due to the moons, the almost exact sun-sun
quincunx and the Taurus-Virgo axis. In that sense, I am I guess more
the messenger or maybe with sun in Leo (and Mars there now) maybe also
a little bit able to "break the curse" to give this a better direction
by not publishing yet in full color and only to stake the claim here,
and to wait a little longer for the model to grow. You got to be aware
that a model of the star sign that is simple enough to be proven in
quantitative experiments would change the conscious perception of the
world enormously, so one better be as carefully prepared as
possible...

Anyway, I hope I could at least tease a little with this ;)

)o+

[A B]

This is really clever. I've only read it quickly, but I'll have another
look at it when I have time. It's interesting that several of the sign
symbols really do have a flavour of the element suggested by Hermes' theory,
as well as their own.
For instance, by Hermes' theory, Sagittarius should be air as well as fire.
Its symbol is a Centaur with a bow. Nothing aerial about that, but its
glyph is a flying arrow, and its associated house is high in the sky. In a
couple of mundane charts I did, the ninth house seemed to mean just "high in
the sky", although I don't know what other people think about this.
Capricorn should be water as well as earth. The Goat is traditionally drawn
as a sort of mermaid, with the tail of a fish, or dolphin, or sea-serpent,
depending who you ask. Hence the wriggly bit in its glyph.
Aquarius should be water as well as air. I daresay we've all wondered why a
Water-Bearer should be an air sign at all! Hermes' theory goes some way to
explaining it.

One thing puzzled me.

Aries is considered to be rather secretive...

Who says that? I always thought Aries would tell his life story to a brick
wall.

Can anybody work out where the Quadruplicities/Qualities
(cardinal/fixed/mutable) might fit into all this?

Many thanks to Hermes for a thought-provoking article.
A. B.

[Hermes]

Thanks a lot for the reply. :)

: One thing puzzled me.
: > Aries is considered to be rather secretive...
:
: Who says that? I always thought Aries would tell
: his life story to a brick wall.

After googling around a bit, it appears that the answer
to "Who says that?" would be "Almost only me."...

I think a similar statement about Aries can still be
plausibly derived from common perceptions about Aries
and also in the model, but I would like to get it right,
so in the meantime just a few more informal hints here:

- To be first out with something really, really new,
you have first to keep it secret (see how Apple Inc.
usually announces new products, * April 1st, 1977,
http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0000927.htm).
- "Hidden" or "secret" is likely a better adjective
than "secretive", as it does not imply any kind of
"fuss" on the side of the individual nor that the
secrecy would be typically visible to outsiders.
(A good friend of mine, who has the sun in Aries got
secretly married while on holidays and even arranged
for the announcement to be sent by mail to friends
and relatives so that they arrived right on the day
they got married.)
- Liz Greene in "The Astrology of Fate":
* The Ram was known to the Egyptians as the primeval god
* Ammon or Amun, whose name means 'the hidden one'. This
* antique ram-headed deity was said to be the force behind
* the invisible wind. The was also called 'he who abides
* in all things', and was imagined as the soul of all
* earthly phenomena.
(She also relates the god of the Ancient Testament to Amun
and Aries, hence Jews would be more Arien than people of
other religons, which shows maybe most clearly in science
where a great majority of really new discoveries and ideas
has been first put forth by people coming from a Jewish
background - again, you have to be able to keep a secret;
on a darker note, things like Nazi propaganda of a
"world-wide Jewish conspiracy" could maybe also be seen
from that angle.)
- Finally, I have the moon in Aries conjunct the MC ;)

A B wrote:

: This is really clever. I've only read it quickly, but I'll have
another
: look at it when I have time. It's interesting that several of the
sign
: symbols really do have a flavour of the element suggested by Hermes'
theory,
: as well as their own.
: For instance, by Hermes' theory, Sagittarius should be air as well
as fire.
: Its symbol is a Centaur with a bow. Nothing aerial about that, but
its
: glyph is a flying arrow, and its associated house is high in the
sky. In a
: couple of mundane charts I did, the ninth house seemed to mean just
"high in
: the sky", although I don't know what other people think about this.

I like the association with the ninth house. Reminds me also
of a sculpture in Miami that I once saw: An archer crouching
in the middle of a little bridge, protecting a woman and a
child with his body and aiming with his bow and arrow straight
up vertically into the sky.

: Capricorn should be water as well as earth. The Goat is
traditionally drawn
: as a sort of mermaid, with the tail of a fish, or dolphin, or sea-
serpent,
: depending who you ask. Hence the wriggly bit in its glyph.
: Aquarius should be water as well as air. I daresay we've all
wondered why a
: Water-Bearer should be an air sign at all! Hermes' theory goes some
way to
: explaining it.


To be fair towards more conventional explanations, I should
mention that Aristotle (and in his line William Lilly and many
others) associate the seasons with elements as follows:

- spring: air
- summer: fire
- autumn: earth
- winter: water

I appears that winters were quite rainy in the times
and places where astrology emerged...

: One thing puzzled me.
: > Aries is considered to be rather secretive...
:
: Who says that? I always thought Aries would tell his life story to
a brick
: wall.
:
: Can anybody work out where the Quadruplicities/Qualities
: (cardinal/fixed/mutable) might fit into all this?


I think a priori the qualities are an independent structure
from my model, but I feel they also fit often quite well
with the model and in other instances seem to be at least
relatively neutral in relation.

Here is a possible partial fit:

In my definition of the elements (see section "elementary
philosophy" on my web site), water and fire _move_ while
earth and air _rest_ (this is a different concept from
_active_ vs. _passive_, e.g. water flows down passively,
but fire rises up actively; more on my web site).

In three of the four cardinal signs there is a transition
between a resting to a moving element, which fits with the
notion that cardinal signs start new things, hence they
create motion:

Aries: earth (rests passively) => fire (moves actively)
Cancer: earth (rests passively) => water (moves passively)
Capricorn: earth (rests passively) => water (moves passively)

Libra does not fit in well (fire-air-water), but at least
has the freedom to get moving in two ways (fire or water),
which fits in another way very will with Libra.

But mathematically, this is of course not a perfect fit,
since Virgo is also a resting element between the same
two moving ones, or Aquarius is an air-water transition.
Still, the notion of a Virgo somewhat lost between too
many options and Aquarius striving for progress, for
things to move again and again, seem to fit quite well.

Or something like that... :)

: Many thanks to Hermes for a thought-provoking article.


You are welcome. :)

)o+
--
http://www.exactphilosophy.net/
Something different...

[A B]

Another quick comment on Hermes' system.

Post by Hermes
Scorpio is already more open than Cancer, but still suspicious and
somewhat afraid to be hurt. "[...] I can see a great deal of of
Scorpion's daimon, which pulls violently both upwards and downwards
yet which [...] must confront and ultimately learn to live with that vital
and terrifying image of instinctal life [...]". The conflict between
moving up and down is in the model between earth and air, or between
source and sea, and the way to go is ultimately down, hence conscious
evolution (air) is important.

The scorpion is an earth-element creature if ever there was one. It lives
under a stone and, like its (possible) relative the spider, can't bear
water. Yet the sign Scorpio is a water sign. But there is a lesser-known
symbol of Scorpio. When it is "perfected", alchemy-style, Scorpio is
represented by an eagle.

"In the Euphrates Valley, where it probably originated, the sign represented
a monster, half scorpion, half man. The human half belonged to the upper
regions, the animal half to the underworld, Hades. Later, the Eagle
corresponded to this upper region, representing the power within man,
through the Scorpio function, to rise above the temptations of his earthly
nature." - Jeff Mayo, "Teach Yourself Astrology".

So there you are. Scorpio, essentially a water sign, begins as an
earthbound scorpion, and finally rises into the air as an eagle. Did Hermes
see the thread I started a while back, "How do YOU interpret Pluto?"
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/thread/16da5e82f3876e34?hl=en#
It ties in rather nicely with his system.

A. B.

[Hermes]

A B wrote:

: Another quick comment on Hermes' system.
:
: > Scorpio is already more open than Cancer, but still suspicious and
: > somewhat afraid to be hurt. "[...] I can see a great deal of of
: > Scorpion's daimon, which pulls violently both upwards and
downwards
: > yet which [...] must confront and ultimately learn to live with
that vital
: > and terrifying image of instinctal life [...]". The conflict
between
: > moving up and down is in the model between earth and air, or
between
: > source and sea, and the way to go is ultimately down, hence
conscious
: > evolution (air) is important.
:
: The scorpion is an earth-element creature if ever there was one. It
lives
: under a stone and, like its (possible) relative the spider, can't
bear
: water. Yet the sign Scorpio is a water sign. But there is a lesser-
known
: symbol of Scorpio. When it is "perfected", alchemy-style, Scorpio
is
: represented by an eagle.
:
: "In the Euphrates Valley, where it probably originated, the sign
represented
: a monster, half scorpion, half man. The human half belonged to the
upper
: regions, the animal half to the underworld, Hades. Later, the Eagle
: corresponded to this upper region, representing the power within
man,
: through the Scorpio function, to rise above the temptations of his
earthly
: nature." - Jeff Mayo, "Teach Yourself Astrology".
:
: So there you are. Scorpio, essentially a water sign, begins as an
: earthbound scorpion, and finally rises into the air as an eagle.
Did Hermes
: see the thread I started a while back, "How do YOU interpret Pluto?"
:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/thread/16da5e82f3876e34%3Fhl%3Den%23&usg=AFQjCNHZJu3Tv3VlrA_VyOdC1LlMbLzCcg
: It ties in rather nicely with his system.

No, I did not see that thread then. I also wanted to reply
to two of your recent posts, but probably won't find the
time until next weekend (or maybe even the one after that),
but I did read your recent posts. Thanks! :)

One quick comment about scorpions: It appears that their
ancestors lived in the sea (but unlike crabs, left the water
for good, millions of years ago), even though not all is clear:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpion#Fossil_record

While I am at it, a.a.mod is a Scorpio:

http://readystump.algebra.com/~aam/Creation.txt

)o+

[A B]

Thanks for your reply. I look forward to the others.
A. B.

[Hermes]

A B wrote:
: Thanks for your reply. I look forward to the others.

Regarding rulership with regard to my model: I do not
see that yet so much, from what you wrote, but maybe
that has also a bit to do with a certain ambivalence
about planetary rulerships of signs, in me and also
generally in astrology, as follows:

Traditionally, as far as I know, the hottest months of
summer got the "life creater" planets, the "luminaries",
sun and moon to Leo and Cancer. Opposite them, in the
coldest months of winter is traditationally Saturn, the
slowest traditional planet who reduces/condenses things,
and hence is in that sense "opposite life".

Symmetrically between these are traditionally the other
planets, in the order of their apparent speed, Mercury,
Venus, Mars, Jupiter, in that order. So, it fits that
the four last signs have also the slowest and oldest
rulers (Saturn father of Jupiter, who is the father of
Venus, Mars and Mercury).

The traditional system of "essential dignities" is much
more complex than mere rulership, see e.g. here:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html

(Besides some exaltatioms, I do not know it in detail.)

The modern rulers, which have been assigned each time to
the later of the two sign in the zodiac, Uranus-Aquarius,
Neptune-Pisces, Mars-Scorpio, can arguably be seen as
"messing up" the traditional structure of the essential
dignities.

In modern 20th century astrology, very often rulers and
planets (and houses) have been almost equated. Writers
like Liz Greene and others from her generation have
written books specifically about single planets, but
none about individual signs or houses, I think at least
unconsciously under the assumption that a book about
Jupiter covers not only the planet but also the sign
Sagittarius and the 9th house, as well as partially
Pisces and the 12th. In a seminar by Liz Greene about
the water houses, someone asked her about the difference
between signs and houses, and at least I could not
isolate any specific difference from her answer, nor
from her seminar then.

In "The Astrology of Fate", for example, she links the
god Poseidon/Neptune more to bull/Taurus than to Pisces,
the sign it rules in modern view. I think quite a few
things have been lost since then (1984), especially her
1995 book about Neptune is something that I am not sure
whether she got completely lost there (which would be
fitting though, for a book about Neptune, or is it me
now who is lost... ;)

I liked the piece of mythology that you cited about
Scorpio in ancient Egypt from Steve Mayo a lot, I think
it fits very well, both with my model and with common
perceptions about Scorpio in astrology.

If one day, humanity started to "terraform" Mars, I
would not be astonished if scorpions, who already
switched to breathing air instead of water (cf. my
model), would be among the first macroscopic land
animals to permanently populate a new planet under
relatively hostile conditions...

)o+

[A B]

Post by Hermes
The traditional system of "essential dignities" is much
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html
(Besides some exaltatioms, I do not know it in detail.)

Very interesting - and fiendishly complicated! I'll read it when I have
time.

Post by Hermes
In a seminar by Liz Greene about
the water houses, someone asked her about the difference
between signs and houses, and at least I could not
isolate any specific difference from her answer, nor
from her seminar then.

The only difference I've ever noticed is that houses seem to be more about
what, rather than how. For example, Jupiter in Virgo might be cautious and
controlled expanding, whereas Jupiter in 6th might be expansion connected
with, for instance, daily work.
Or did you mean rulers and houses?

Post by Hermes
I liked the piece of mythology that you cited about
Scorpio in ancient Egypt from Steve Mayo a lot, I think
it fits very well, both with my model and with common
perceptions about Scorpio in astrology.

Jeff Mayo. I've not heard of Steve Mayo, who is he?

If I come up with anything else later, I'll let you know.
A. B.

[Hermes]

A B wrote:

: Just a quick reply:

Fine with me :)

: "Hermes" <***@bluewin.ch> wrote on 5th December:
:
: > The traditional system of "essential dignities" is much
: > more complex than mere rulership, see e.g. here:
: > http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html
: > (Besides some exaltatioms, I do not know it in detail.)
:
: Very interesting - and fiendishly complicated! I'll read it when I
have
: time.


Me too, actually. I guess to be "competitive" in these
times in astrology (including in order to understand what
is happening in the world), I feel and think you *have*
to know traditional methods...

: > In a seminar by Liz Greene about
: > the water houses, someone asked her about the difference
: > between signs and houses, and at least I could not
: > isolate any specific difference from her answer, nor
: > from her seminar then.
:
: The only difference I've ever noticed is that houses seem to be more
about
: what, rather than how. For example, Jupiter in Virgo might be
cautious and
: controlled expanding, whereas Jupiter in 6th might be expansion
connected
: with, for instance, daily work.
: Or did you mean rulers and houses?


No I mean signs vs. houses, was no typo for a change.

: > I liked the piece of mythology that you cited about
: > Scorpio in ancient Egypt from Steve Mayo a lot, I think
: > it fits very well, both with my model and with common
: > perceptions about Scorpio in astrology.
:
: Jeff Mayo. I've not heard of Steve Mayo, who is he?


Typo by me...

: If I come up with anything else later, I'll let you know.

No hurry, I myself would actually like to let some things
I read (and wrote) settle, and Mercury is in Capricorn now
(and conjuct Pluto, if that still means anything...).

: A. B.
:

)o+

[A B]

Hermes' theory depends on a division of the Zodiac into thirds:
Aries-Taurus-Gemini-Cancer;
Leo-Virgo-Libra-Scorpio;
Sagittarius-Capricorn-Aquarius-Pisces.
This is by no means a usual division, but I've just noticed that it makes a
lot of sense in astronomical terms. The connection lies with the sign
rulers. I'll take the three sections in order.

Group 1: Mars-Venus-Mercury-Moon
These are what astronomers call the "terrestrial planets", the small, solid
ones inside the asteroid belt. The exception, of course, is the Moon. You
could say that it represents the Earth, the other terrestrial planet, which
it orbits. But if the Earth weren't there, the Moon would certainly count
as a terrestrial planet in its own right. And technically, it's just as
valid to say that the Earth orbits the Moon - thus making the Moon the third
planet, with an extremely large satellite.

Group 2: Sun-Mercury-Venus-Pluto
A mixed bag, these. A star, two duplicate terrestrial planets, and one
stray Kuiper belt object. The only thing I can say about these is that they
don't quite fit into either of the other groups. Definitely the weakest
link of the whole scheme. Can anybody suggest anything about this lot?

Group 3: Jupiter-Saturn-Uranus-Neptune
The so-called "giant planets" or "gas giants", all neatly lined up in order
of distance.

Traditional astrologers would put Aquarius under Saturn, Pisces under
Jupiter and Scorpio under Mars; but what I've said applies just the same.

I don't draw any particular conclusion from all this, except that there may
be more to this classification than meets the eye.
A. B.

[Hermes]

I wrote:
: In modern 20th century astrology, very often rulers and
: planets (and houses) have been almost equated.

Correction:
In modern 20th century astrology, very often rulers and
*signs* (and houses) have been almost equated.

)o+