Precessed Solar Returns?

[JAMES ARONIS]

I'm not certain if this topic has been discussed recently, but I'm
interested in knowing if anyone has observed precessed solar returns and
what they may have discovered versus the unprecessed SR? I have been
closely looking at my SR charts past and future, and noticed that some
of the precessed return charts more closely described the events of the
year. I'm interested in knowing anyone's personal observations.

James

[Chris Mitchell]

Post by JAMES ARONIS
I'm not certain if this topic has been discussed recently, but I'm
interested in knowing if anyone has observed precessed solar returns and
what they may have discovered versus the unprecessed SR? I have been
closely looking at my SR charts past and future, and noticed that some
of the precessed return charts more closely described the events of the
year. I'm interested in knowing anyone's personal observations.
James

Our local astrology group did this one recently - and we looked at
significant years using both precessed and non-precessed returns. I
have to say, the consensus did seem to be that the precessed ones
fitted better.

It's interesting that western siderealists tend to consider "sidereal
solar returns" to be the "proof" that sidereal astrology works -
whereas an awful lot of tropical astrologers don't seem to have much
joy with them. Even Rob Hand said he gave up using conventional solar
returns in consultations because "sometimes they worked, sometimes
they didn't". And since a precessed solar return has a lot in common
with a sidereal solar return (the signs are different, but the houses
will tend to be the same, and the aspects will be the same - though
it's only the Moon that differs significantly between precessed and
non-precessed), this assertion would seem to fit.

[Ray Murphy]

----------

Post by Chris Mitchell

Post by JAMES ARONIS
I'm not certain if this topic has been discussed recently, but I'm
interested in knowing if anyone has observed precessed solar returns and
what they may have discovered versus the unprecessed SR? I have been
closely looking at my SR charts past and future, and noticed that some
of the precessed return charts more closely described the events of the
year. I'm interested in knowing anyone's personal observations.
James

Our local astrology group did this one recently - and we looked at
significant years using both precessed and non-precessed returns. I
have to say, the consensus did seem to be that the precessed ones
fitted better.
It's interesting that western siderealists tend to consider "sidereal
solar returns" to be the "proof" that sidereal astrology works -
whereas an awful lot of tropical astrologers don't seem to have much
joy with them. Even Rob Hand said he gave up using conventional solar
returns in consultations because "sometimes they worked, sometimes
they didn't". And since a precessed solar return has a lot in common
with a sidereal solar return (the signs are different, but the houses
will tend to be the same, and the aspects will be the same - though
it's only the Moon that differs significantly between precessed and
non-precessed), this assertion would seem to fit.

RM: One of those old experts in Western Sidereal astrology (Bradley or
Fagan?) said in a small book on this topic that one should read
precessed solar returns in an entirely different way.

Post by Chris Mitchell
Chris Mitchell,

Ray

[Chris Mitchell]

Post by Ray Murphy
RM: One of those old experts in Western Sidereal astrology (Bradley or
Fagan?) said in a small book on this topic that one should read
precessed solar returns in an entirely different way.

Yes, and I'm not familiar enough with the siderealists' way of reading
charts to understand it fully; however, someone on a siderealist list
did demonstrate the technique to me once using my chart as an example
(though how good a siderealist they were, I don't know), and there was
a lot of emphasis on aspects and houses - and these will be pretty
much the same in an SSR and a precessed tropical return. Obviously,
the main difference is the signs (which will differ), and the emphasis
on the sign rulers - I was a little sceptical here, because there
seemed to be some spurious arguments as to why things I associated
with Cancer were actually "Mercurial" (because the planets in question
were actually in sidereal Gemini) and so on.

Chris.

[Martin Lewicki]

Post by Chris Mitchell

Post by Ray Murphy
RM: One of those old experts in Western Sidereal astrology (Bradley or
Fagan?) said in a small book on this topic that one should read
precessed solar returns in an entirely different way.

Yes, and I'm not familiar enough with the siderealists' way of reading
charts to understand it fully; however, someone on a siderealist list
did demonstrate the technique to me once using my chart as an example
(though how good a siderealist they were, I don't know), and there was
a lot of emphasis on aspects and houses - and these will be pretty
much the same in an SSR and a precessed tropical return. Obviously,
the main difference is the signs (which will differ), and the emphasis
on the sign rulers - I was a little sceptical here, because there
seemed to be some spurious arguments as to why things I associated
with Cancer were actually "Mercurial" (because the planets in question
were actually in sidereal Gemini) and so on.
Chris.

Donald Bradley in his "Solar and Lunar Returns" advocates sidereal returns,
meaning the use of sidereal signs and precession. However his examples
rely heavilyon angularity, house and aspects and with only scant reference
to the sidereal sign placings themselves. In fact he tells to ingnore
rulerships too. So, you may cast either precessed SR or tropical with the
same outcome in interpretation!

Back in 1976 when I first statred with SRs I worked with both TropSR and
PrecSR. The PrecSR's seemed to give the more "objective" results - ie
events that happened in the year while the TropSR's seem to indicate
"subjective events - you know, mind and perception states.

Also I found the interpretatinons were cleaner and more to the point when I
ignored the signs and rulerships of either trop/sid persuasion. So I now
simply cast in tropical-precessed and look at the most obvious aspects,
house and angluarities if they exist.

Martin


Replace username: mlewicki
Relpace dot delimited numbers with ozemail com au

[Ed Falis]

Post by Martin Lewicki
Also I found the interpretatinons were cleaner and more to the point when I
ignored the signs and rulerships of either trop/sid persuasion. So I now
simply cast in tropical-precessed and look at the most obvious aspects,
house and angluarities if they exist.

That's exactly the approach I used for a long time. It "felt" like it
worked better (than straight tropical returns). But I find myself very
undecided about returns in many ways.

- Ed

[Alois Treindl]

I cannot comment on 'precession modified' solar returns or transits
on basis of experience, because I don't use them.

But from a philospophical point of view, it makes no sense to me
to step out of the tropical coordinate reference frame and to use
'precession modified' transits or returns

[I do not call them 'precession corrected' because the word 'correction'
gives the wrong clue, as I would rather call this 'recession falsified']

In tropical coordinates, we have essentially a rotating coordinate
reference frame. The zero point Aries moves relative to a fixed-star
based spatial background according to the soli-lunar precession of the
equinoxes.

We think that natal planets, including the natal Sun, leave "marks" on
this coordinate reference frame, our mesuring circle. We do not think
that they leave marks in 'absolute space' or on another, fixed-star
based measuring circle.

So we consider a transit or a return as happening at that time when the
moving planet crosses such a mark wich was made on the tropical zodiac,
i.e. on our measuring circle.

Trying to do this in another reference frame, a fixed star based one,
makes little sense for a tropicalist. It would have to be considered as
a mixing of two systems, a logical breakling of the system.

Thinking of marks in 'absolute space' makes no sense at all, because the
galaxis rotates as well, and the whole solar system moves at
considerable speed.

[Ed Falis]

Being of a philosophical bent myself, I agree completely with Alois'
statements.

Having used both, I find it a wash - meaning that I haven't found either
kind of return particularly effective.

- Ed

[Chris Mitchell]

Post by Ed Falis
Being of a philosophical bent myself, I agree completely with Alois'
statements.
Having used both, I find it a wash - meaning that I haven't found either
kind of return particularly effective.
- Ed

Yes, I'm vague about the applicability of solar returns, too. I
suspect a siderealist would agree with Alois too - it *is* mixing
apples and oranges. A siderealist would claim that a *sidereal* solar
return is valuable, and that a tropical solar return adjusted for
precession is not valid, but is at least closer to the sidereal mark
(the houses and aspects being the same).

[Spica]

Raymond Merryman has done some work on Processed Sola Return ("The New Solar
Return Book of Prediction", Seek-it Publications)


Spica

Post by Chris Mitchell

Post by JAMES ARONIS
I'm not certain if this topic has been discussed recently, but I'm
interested in knowing if anyone has observed precessed solar returns and
what they may have discovered versus the unprecessed SR? I have been
closely looking at my SR charts past and future, and noticed that some
of the precessed return charts more closely described the events of the
year. I'm interested in knowing anyone's personal observations.
James

Our local astrology group did this one recently - and we looked at
significant years using both precessed and non-precessed returns. I
have to say, the consensus did seem to be that the precessed ones
fitted better.
It's interesting that western siderealists tend to consider "sidereal
solar returns" to be the "proof" that sidereal astrology works -
whereas an awful lot of tropical astrologers don't seem to have much
joy with them. Even Rob Hand said he gave up using conventional solar
returns in consultations because "sometimes they worked, sometimes
they didn't". And since a precessed solar return has a lot in common
with a sidereal solar return (the signs are different, but the houses
will tend to be the same, and the aspects will be the same - though
it's only the Moon that differs significantly between precessed and
non-precessed), this assertion would seem to fit.
--
Chris Mitchell,
Bristol, England.
http://www.zaalberg.freeserve.co.uk
Remove the "nospam" from my e-mail address to reply!

[JAMES ARONIS]

I'll purchase this book later on in the month or next, if I can find it.
I'm very interested in precessed solar returns in spite of some very
good opinions concerning this method's possible invalidness. I'm
'seeing' annual events in a different light than I have before. It seems
the more I study my own return charts, the more information I get out of
this method. We'll see what Raymond Merryman has to say about the
method, and if I discovery something new worth noting I'll post a follow up.

Thanks,
James

Post by Spica
Raymond Merryman has done some work on Processed Sola Return ("The

New Solar

Post by Spica
Return Book of Prediction", Seek-it Publications)
Spica

[Dark Star]

Hello,

Sidereal for the election:
Bush's solar return shows Uranus with Moon on MC by 3* with rich aspects.
Kerry's solar return shows Uranus on MC by 5* with no aspects.

Tropical for the election:
Bush's solar return has Node on the MC by 9*.
Kerry's solar return has Node on the MC by 17*.

Is this a hard choice to make?

Dark*Star
________________________________

Post by JAMES ARONIS
I'm not certain if this topic has been discussed recently, but I'm
interested in knowing if anyone has observed precessed solar returns and
what they may have discovered versus the unprecessed SR? I have been
closely looking at my SR charts past and future, and noticed that some
of the precessed return charts more closely described the events of the
year. I'm interested in knowing anyone's personal observations.
James

[Ray Murphy]

----------

Post by Dark Star
Hello,
Bush's solar return shows Uranus with Moon on MC by 3* with rich aspects.
Kerry's solar return shows Uranus on MC by 5* with no aspects.
Bush's solar return has Node on the MC by 9*.
Kerry's solar return has Node on the MC by 17*.
Is this a hard choice to make?

RM: Is *what* a hard choice to make? You've said nothing meaningful.

Post by Dark Star
Dark*Star

Ray

[Dark Star]

Sorry, a bit laconic I was...
This was in answer to James Aronis's question regarding the value
of precessed solar returns and using the data I gave to predict the
November election.

Hope you weren't one of the 80% of the astrologers (including Hindu)
who, delineating the television screen instead of the charts got it wrong.

Dark*Star
_______________________________

Post by Ray Murphy
----------

Post by Dark Star
Hello,
Bush's solar return shows Uranus with Moon on MC by 3* with rich aspects.
Kerry's solar return shows Uranus on MC by 5* with no aspects.
Bush's solar return has Node on the MC by 9*.
Kerry's solar return has Node on the MC by 17*.
Is this a hard choice to make?

RM: Is *what* a hard choice to make? You've said nothing meaningful.

Post by Dark Star
Dark*Star

Ray

[Ray Murphy]

----------

Post by Dark Star
_______________________________

Post by Ray Murphy
----------

Post by Dark Star
Hello,
Bush's solar return shows Uranus with Moon on MC by 3* with rich aspects.
Kerry's solar return shows Uranus on MC by 5* with no aspects.
Bush's solar return has Node on the MC by 9*.
Kerry's solar return has Node on the MC by 17*.
Is this a hard choice to make?

RM: Is *what* a hard choice to make? You've said nothing meaningful.

Sorry, a bit laconic I was...
This was in answer to James Aronis's question regarding the value
of precessed solar returns and using the data I gave to predict the
November election.
Hope you weren't one of the 80% of the astrologers (including Hindu)
who, delineating the television screen instead of the charts got it wrong.

RM: No, I don't use astrology for elections. It doesn't matter anyway
because I pick nearly all of them correctly anyway without it.

Post by Dark Star
Dark*Star

Ray

[JAMES ARONIS]

Are you stating here that the Sidereal SR results are more meaningful
and reveal Bush's victory in the 2004 November election, whereas the
Tropical returns are somewhat misleading or ambiguous...?

When I started this thread I had precessed Tropical SR charts in mind. I
guess I should have been more specific. Unfortunately, I don't practice
Sidereal astrology, but the candidates' SR chart comparisons between the
two methods are interesting nonetheless.

James

Post by Dark Star
Hello,
Bush's solar return shows Uranus with Moon on MC by 3* with rich

aspects.

Post by Dark Star
Kerry's solar return shows Uranus on MC by 5* with no aspects.
Bush's solar return has Node on the MC by 9*.
Kerry's solar return has Node on the MC by 17*.
Is this a hard choice to make?
Dark*Star
________________________________

Post by JAMES ARONIS
I'm not certain if this topic has been discussed recently, but I'm
interested in knowing if anyone has observed precessed solar returns and
what they may have discovered versus the unprecessed SR? I have been
closely looking at my SR charts past and future, and noticed that some
of the precessed return charts more closely described the events of the
year. I'm interested in knowing anyone's personal observations.
James

[Martin Lewicki]

Post by JAMES ARONIS
Are you stating here that the Sidereal SR results are more meaningful
and reveal Bush's victory in the 2004 November election, whereas the
Tropical returns are somewhat misleading or ambiguous...?
When I started this thread I had precessed Tropical SR charts in mind.
I guess I should have been more specific. Unfortunately, I don't
practice Sidereal astrology, but the candidates' SR chart comparisons
between the two methods are interesting nonetheless.
James

James

Precessing solar return is not necessarily sidereal astrology. I precess my
SRs but remain tropical for convenience. I look primarily at angularity,
aspects and to a lesser extent houses. The signs of either zodiac are not
really considered.

Ref:
Solar and Lunar Returns, Donald Bradley [Llewlyn]
Interpreting Solar returns, Jame Eshelman [ACS]


Martin

Post by JAMES ARONIS

Post by Dark Star
Hello,
Bush's solar return shows Uranus with Moon on MC by 3* with rich
aspects. Kerry's solar return shows Uranus on MC by 5* with no
aspects.
Bush's solar return has Node on the MC by 9*.
Kerry's solar return has Node on the MC by 17*.
Is this a hard choice to make?
Dark*Star
________________________________

Post by JAMES ARONIS
I'm not certain if this topic has been discussed recently, but I'm
interested in knowing if anyone has observed precessed solar returns
and what they may have discovered versus the unprecessed SR? I have
been closely looking at my SR charts past and future, and noticed
that some of the precessed return charts more closely described the
events of the year. I'm interested in knowing anyone's personal
observations.
James

[s***@yahoo.com]

Post by Martin Lewicki
Precessing solar return is not necessarily sidereal astrology. I

precess my SRs but remain tropical for convenience.<<

Yes, I have heard it said that they are "sidereal returns expressed
tropically". Sun will be about a degree forward of the natal position
due to the precession. I know people have strong feelings about how
illogical this is, but if it describes the year in highsight perfectly
to the events, then... perhaps there is something to it somehow.

IMO, the PCSRs are more directly insightful to the nature of the year's
events and I do use the signs -- besides the angularity of the SR
planets, I place the natal outside of the SR in a Bi-wheel and see
which planets are angularized by the SR that year.

I also do the a tropical (non-pressessed) and bi-wheel it with the
natal outside as well. I look for patterns in expression like Moon in
Libra in one = relationships highlighted and Sun in the 5th of the
other -- so "relationships" are highlighted for the year in both and I
place more emphasis on that because I have an indication X 2.

I have found planets in aspect to the Placidus cusps to be revelant in
expression as well.

I have also found taking another person's natal and placing it on an
outside wheel is very telling regards to the relationship that year --
amazing how the person's SR Venus (for example) will fall on the other
person's natal sun or mars or moon. Really quite interesting during
years of important mutual contact.

[Martin Lewicki]

Post by s***@yahoo.com

Post by Martin Lewicki
Precessing solar return is not necessarily sidereal astrology. I
precess my SRs but remain tropical for convenience.<<

Yes, I have heard it said that they are "sidereal returns expressed
tropically". Sun will be about a degree forward of the natal position
due to the precession. I know people have strong feelings about how
illogical this is, but if it describes the year in highsight perfectly
to the events, then... perhaps there is something to it somehow.
IMO, the PCSRs are more directly insightful to the nature of the year's
events and I do use the signs -- besides the angularity of the SR
planets, I place the natal outside of the SR in a Bi-wheel and see
which planets are angularized by the SR that year.
I also do the a tropical (non-pressessed) and bi-wheel it with the
natal outside as well. I look for patterns in expression like Moon in
Libra in one = relationships highlighted and Sun in the 5th of the
other -- so "relationships" are highlighted for the year in both and I
place more emphasis on that because I have an indication X 2.
I have found planets in aspect to the Placidus cusps to be revelant in
expression as well.
I have also found taking another person's natal and placing it on an
outside wheel is very telling regards to the relationship that year --
amazing how the person's SR Venus (for example) will fall on the other
person's natal sun or mars or moon. Really quite interesting during
years of important mutual contact.

Yes I follow most of your procedures to with telling results espacially
angularity.

We should note that a "precessed return" is a 360 degree cycle of the Sun
in what is called a sidereal year. This is 365d 6h 9m 9.1s. In oter words
it is the return of the Sun to a reference fixed star.

Tropical return by contrast is the return of the Sun in a tropical year
approx 365 5h 48m 46.5s. That is the Sun makes less than a 360 degree
cyclce! In fact 359.9886 degrees. This is because the tropical zodiac
coordinate system has slipped retrograde 50.256" due to precession during
the year bringing the "finishing line" slight back on the annual track than
a sidereal year.

Martin

[Dark Star]

James,

The sidereal return was more useful in predicting the election to me.
The precessed tropical return is sidereal in timing but tropical in notation
and a good security blanket for the zodiac you know. Try looking again
at Bush's natals around his 1888 Converse Sidereal

Dark*Star
________________________________

Post by JAMES ARONIS
Are you stating here that the Sidereal SR results are more meaningful
and reveal Bush's victory in the 2004 November election, whereas the
Tropical returns are somewhat misleading or ambiguous...?
When I started this thread I had precessed Tropical SR charts in mind. I
guess I should have been more specific. Unfortunately, I don't practice
Sidereal astrology, but the candidates' SR chart comparisons between the
two methods are interesting nonetheless.
James

Post by Dark Star
Hello,
Bush's solar return shows Uranus with Moon on MC by 3* with rich

aspects.

Post by Dark Star
Kerry's solar return shows Uranus on MC by 5* with no aspects.
Bush's solar return has Node on the MC by 9*.
Kerry's solar return has Node on the MC by 17*.
Is this a hard choice to make?
Dark*Star
________________________________

Post by JAMES ARONIS
I'm not certain if this topic has been discussed recently, but I'm
interested in knowing if anyone has observed precessed solar returns and
what they may have discovered versus the unprecessed SR? I have been
closely looking at my SR charts past and future, and noticed that some
of the precessed return charts more closely described the events of the
year. I'm interested in knowing anyone's personal observations.
James

[JAMES ARONIS]

It seems that more and more astrologers are at least looking into
precessed returns these days, and not just the SR. I'm coming across
more authors mentioning them than a decade ago, when I started learning
astrology and never knew what precessed returns were.

Reading the BML thread, it appears that you have dabbled in just about
every astrology method I've heard of. Have you looked at converse
returns? I stopped studying those a few years ago, because I could not
find a suitable method to delineate them. They are quite strange. If
they prove to be a widely used prognostication tool for astrologers one
day, I would be extremely interested how they might be interpreted
compared to either tropical or precessed returns.

I have not read or thought of using a biwheel with another person's
natal chart on the outer wheel of a SR chart. Actually, I seldom place
my own natal chart around my SR. I believe that the SR chart can
generally stand on its own, but I will definitely try this method and
see what comes up, especially regarding relationships as you cited. I'm
guessing that for this method you utilize only strong aspects and very
tight orbs, correct?

James

Post by s***@yahoo.com

Post by Martin Lewicki
Precessing solar return is not necessarily sidereal astrology. I

precess my SRs but remain tropical for convenience.<<
Yes, I have heard it said that they are "sidereal returns expressed
tropically". Sun will be about a degree forward of the natal position
due to the precession. I know people have strong feelings about how
illogical this is, but if it describes the year in highsight perfectly
to the events, then... perhaps there is something to it somehow.
IMO, the PCSRs are more directly insightful to the nature of the year's
events and I do use the signs -- besides the angularity of the SR
planets, I place the natal outside of the SR in a Bi-wheel and see
which planets are angularized by the SR that year.
I also do the a tropical (non-pressessed) and bi-wheel it with the
natal outside as well. I look for patterns in expression like Moon in
Libra in one = relationships highlighted and Sun in the 5th of the
other -- so "relationships" are highlighted for the year in both and I
place more emphasis on that because I have an indication X 2.
I have found planets in aspect to the Placidus cusps to be revelant in
expression as well.
I have also found taking another person's natal and placing it on an
outside wheel is very telling regards to the relationship that year --
amazing how the person's SR Venus (for example) will fall on the other
person's natal sun or mars or moon. Really quite interesting during
years of important mutual contact.

[s***@yahoo.com]

James wrote:

"I'm guessing that for this method you utilize only strong aspects and
very tight orbs, correct?"

Yes, only 0-1.3 degs or so, give or take a couple of minutes --
important relationships will show up with several tight aspects anyway
and the other aspects are mostly unimportant.

[s***@yahoo.com]

I forgot to mention, when analzying SRs with myself and another person
-- I put my SR in the center and then I put my Natal and Sec.
Progressed and their Natal and Sec Progressed around the center wheel
SR.

Then I swap it so the other person's SR is in the center. Like I said
in the previous post -- only really tight orbed aspects count IMO (0-2
degrees can work looking back). Especially to the angles and
conjunctions. I take especial note of tight major configurations like
Cosmic Crosses amongst all these 4 or 5 charts and Grand Trines.

These are planets or asteroids all synchronized between the two people
during the year and is very powerful for promoting change and events in
a relartionship for good or for difficulty -- depending on the planets
and aspects.

Then for angularity if your solar return brings their natal Mars to the
Asc the PCSR and their natal Venus to the Asc in the Non-PCSR, for
example, you probably can guess... and then your natal Venus is on the
IC of your SR, for example. Then your natal Jupiter on their Asc. of
the SR.... You will start to see confirmations throughout all the
charts in an especially eventful year.

You can start to see how the coming year MAY unfold in regards to the
person you are interested in -- or if no one is around -- then a new
love may appear with those sorts of confirmations.

If you are a male -- the SR Moon and aspects to the moon will describe
the partner -- so a Moon conj Uranus speaks of an unusual partner
(potentially a new woman) or an astrologer for example. The ther Sun
and aspects to the Sun will speak of the man in the woman's like

You can also add the Composite into the mix, with 2 SRs outside and
w/wo Natals and Sec Progresseed of each person. Again -- I use the PSR
and the Non-PSR returns -- so I run a lot if charts.

Sounds like too much to assimilate, but like an air traffic controller
you get so you can handle charts with more and more points in them.
After awhile, if there are not 150 points, you are bumfuzzled by the
lack of data to read. LOL

I include all the major asteroids - - this is diffcult and also because
the first combo I mentioned requires a 5-wheel chart which is
impossible with my software so I end up doing two with one with the
extra Sec. Progressed.

I have run out of sofware power on a lot of the stuff I do. I am
working right now with the Prenatal Eclipses and how you place those on
the inside wheel and you put the nata; partner or potential partner on
the outside.

This is amazing of how with the tightest aspects (and mostly
conjunctions) will describe the relationhships in a most amazing way.

I have done this with two husbands and a couple of boyfriends and been
amazed of how descriptive they are -- another astrologer asked about
one with my Prenatal Eclipse w/ last husband's Natal.

"What was that Mercury conj his SNode" about in that marriage?" -- "I
taught him to speak and understand English", I replied. Like that...
Also his Sun, Saturn and Mars at 25 Aqu was exactly on my Prenatal
solar eclipse Ascendant. The marriage ended with him jumping on me and
pummeling me. That was it. He was asked to leave and did.

I have since used my Prenatal Eclipses for date screening to very
excellent results -- they have to pass the "Prenatal Eclipse Test" --
nevermind the synastry -- the Prenatal Eclipse says it all in a
nutshell.

You can also use the 4 PNE's of the two people as a Bi-wheel with the
Composite and be blown away as well. Try it! It's a neat thing! :)

[s***@yahoo.com]

PS: Sorry. The number of concentric chart wheels I mispoke about may
have been confusing. What I need to see are the 2 SRs (either precessed
or non), the two natals, and then the two Sec. Progressed all in
concentric wheels. So I need 6 concentric wheels at once for my
preference.

I shuffle them around different ways to see the relationships easier.

It is impossible with my present software, so I end up breaking them up
since I can only get a quad wheel at one time.

The multipole wheels is where all the synchronizations show up between
the SR, natal and progressed positions are really obvious.

[s***@yahoo.com]

Following up on Precessed vs. Non-precessed SRs:

Last marriage in 1984 showed husband's non-precessed SR had the same
degree and sign on his SR Asc as my natal chart.

His NPSR Sun was in the SR 7th house (which was also my natal 7th since
the rising is the same as my natal) and my NNode was on his SR Moon in
Cancer in the 12th.

In the Precessed SR, my natal Juno was conjunct his SR Juno in his
7th. My NN 27 Can was conjunct his Moon at 29 Can in the 9th.

SR Pluto was just inside his PCSR Asc at 2 Scorpio. He had SN conjunct
Uranus opp NN conjunct Vesta for a change of residence.

I had about 5 planets retro and he had a Moon at 29 Cancer and Pluto
Ret on his SR Asc. and a whole bunch of really telling things from
Connie Cumming's book and her list of things in SRs of marriage years.
All the stuff you would NOT think would be good for getting married --
like planets in Fall or Detriment, Critical degrees and lots of planets
in Cancer or Libra are some on her list on indications for marriage in
the SR.

So his non-pressed SR was pretty right on for describing a marriage in
his case.

In my case, the Precessed version had a more direct expression IMO
with Moon, Sun, Venus and Mercury in Cancer in the 7th -- I relocated
it from NYC to Puerto Rico on my BD, because all those were in the 8th
house in NYC and I was running out of time.

Moon applying to Sun and Venus is pretty classic for a SR marriage --
and I moved it into the 7th from the 8th by traveling just before my BD
on June 28th -- so I met my husband on July 11th, I believe, and we
married on Sept. 4 two months later.

I had run out of biological clock time so it was not a minute too soon
and our son was born in October of the following year.

Whew... barely made it! A Cancer lady with no children -- a sad state
of affairs I felt at the time -- -- so I pulled it off with relocating
a great little bundle of Moon in Cancer conjunct Sun, Venus and Mercury
into the 7th of the Precessed SR! Ha.

I feel compelled to use both the Precessed and Non-Presessed SRs for
just the event I described above. You could miss something -- but both
give a nice consensous where you say, "Marriage!" or whatever the two
SR charts seem to be describing.

Lucky me! -- my son comes to visit me on Christmas -- or I would have
no family -- all dead now except for him and me. So I am a firm
believer of relocating the SR for fun and profit. :)

[JAMES ARONIS]

I haven't used converse returns in quite a while, but I'll look into
this one since I'm interested in knowing why the election came out the
way it did. 1888 you say? I'll look into it.

I wish there was an astrology program that informs the user which year
in forward time the converse return is equivalent to. The forward year
displayed to the side of the converse year in brackets would help.

James

Post by Dark Star
James,
The sidereal return was more useful in predicting the election to me.
The precessed tropical return is sidereal in timing but tropical in

notation

Post by Dark Star
and a good security blanket for the zodiac you know. Try looking again
at Bush's natals around his 1888 Converse Sidereal
Dark*Star
________________________________

Post by JAMES ARONIS
Are you stating here that the Sidereal SR results are more meaningful
and reveal Bush's victory in the 2004 November election, whereas the
Tropical returns are somewhat misleading or ambiguous...?
When I started this thread I had precessed Tropical SR charts in mind. I
guess I should have been more specific. Unfortunately, I don't practice
Sidereal astrology, but the candidates' SR chart comparisons between the
two methods are interesting nonetheless.
James

Post by Dark Star
Hello,
Bush's solar return shows Uranus with Moon on MC by 3* with rich

aspects.

Post by Dark Star
Kerry's solar return shows Uranus on MC by 5* with no aspects.
Bush's solar return has Node on the MC by 9*.
Kerry's solar return has Node on the MC by 17*.
Is this a hard choice to make?
Dark*Star
________________________________

Post by JAMES ARONIS
I'm not certain if this topic has been discussed recently, but I'm
interested in knowing if anyone has observed precessed solar

returns and

Post by Dark Star

Post by JAMES ARONIS

Post by Dark Star

Post by JAMES ARONIS
what they may have discovered versus the unprecessed SR? I have been
closely looking at my SR charts past and future, and noticed that some
of the precessed return charts more closely described the events

of the

Post by Dark Star

Post by JAMES ARONIS

Post by Dark Star

Post by JAMES ARONIS
year. I'm interested in knowing anyone's personal observations.
James

[Ed Falis]

Post by JAMES ARONIS
I wish there was an astrology program that informs the user which year
in forward time the converse return is equivalent to. The forward year
displayed to the side of the converse year in brackets would help.

Well, the astroframes distribution also contains a program call julian
that reflects any date and time around a another one - you can go either
direction. I built it specifically to solve this problem.


http://mysite.verizon.net/vze6qirr/myindex.html

- Ed

[JAMES ARONIS]

Thank you very much for the wealth of information you contributed to
this thread. Solar returns are one of my preferred methods of
astrological prognostication. You provided many new insights for me and
others to explore and add to our forecasting repertory, especially in
the realm of relationships.

Sincerely,
James

Post by s***@yahoo.com
PS: Sorry. The number of concentric chart wheels I mispoke about may
have been confusing. What I need to see are the 2 SRs (either precessed
or non), the two natals, and then the two Sec. Progressed all in
concentric wheels. So I need 6 concentric wheels at once for my
preference.
I shuffle them around different ways to see the relationships easier.
It is impossible with my present software, so I end up breaking them up
since I can only get a quad wheel at one time.
The multipole wheels is where all the synchronizations show up between
the SR, natal and progressed positions are really obvious.

[JAMES ARONIS]

Post by s***@yahoo.com
Last marriage in 1984 showed husband's non-precessed SR had the same
degree and sign on his SR Asc as my natal chart.
His NPSR Sun was in the SR 7th house (which was also my natal 7th since
the rising is the same as my natal) and my NNode was on his SR Moon in
Cancer in the 12th.
In the Precessed SR, my natal Juno was conjunct his SR Juno in his
7th. My NN 27 Can was conjunct his Moon at 29 Can in the 9th.
SR Pluto was just inside his PCSR Asc at 2 Scorpio. He had SN conjunct
Uranus opp NN conjunct Vesta for a change of residence.
I had about 5 planets retro and he had a Moon at 29 Cancer and Pluto
Ret on his SR Asc. and a whole bunch of really telling things from
Connie Cumming's book and her list of things in SRs of marriage years.
All the stuff you would NOT think would be good for getting married --
like planets in Fall or Detriment, Critical degrees and lots of planets
in Cancer or Libra are some on her list on indications for marriage in
the SR.

I haven't read some of these types of indicators in my forecasting
books. What's the title of Connie Cumming's book and OOC, what other
major indicators of marriage does she cite to look for in a SR chart?

Post by s***@yahoo.com
So his non-pressed SR was pretty right on for describing a marriage in
his case.
In my case, the Precessed version had a more direct expression IMO
with Moon, Sun, Venus and Mercury in Cancer in the 7th -- I relocated
it from NYC to Puerto Rico on my BD, because all those were in the 8th
house in NYC and I was running out of time.
Moon applying to Sun and Venus is pretty classic for a SR marriage --
and I moved it into the 7th from the 8th by traveling just before my BD
on June 28th -- so I met my husband on July 11th, I believe, and we
married on Sept. 4 two months later.
I had run out of biological clock time so it was not a minute too soon
and our son was born in October of the following year.
Whew... barely made it! A Cancer lady with no children -- a sad state
of affairs I felt at the time -- -- so I pulled it off with relocating
a great little bundle of Moon in Cancer conjunct Sun, Venus and Mercury
into the 7th of the Precessed SR! Ha.
I feel compelled to use both the Precessed and Non-Presessed SRs for
just the event I described above. You could miss something -- but both
give a nice consensous where you say, "Marriage!" or whatever the two
SR charts seem to be describing.

So, you always incorporate both types of SRs to the effect that
corroborating information and redundant themes reinforces indicators in
both charts. This may be a difficult question, but if you had only one
choice, which method would you have more faith in describing the year ahead?

Post by s***@yahoo.com
Lucky me! -- my son comes to visit me on Christmas -- or I would have
no family -- all dead now except for him and me. So I am a firm
believer of relocating the SR for fun and profit. :)

Have you relocated in other years with similar positive results (based
on what you were hoping for)?

[s***@yahoo.com]

Thanks, James, for your very kind words!
James,

The book is from AFA 1981, "Solar Returns" by Connie Cummings. It is a
thin yellow paperback. It has NOTHING to do with just SRs. It is all
about research she did with 20-30 SRs of people who got married and
about the same number who got divorce in a year and what showed up in
those SRs.

She found that marriage and divorce charts had a lot of similarities. I
found no mention of the type of SR she used.

She lists a whole bunch of indicators like Cardinal or Mutable signs
risings. Planets at 0 or 29 degrees of any sign and "critical degrees"
of the different signs.

A number of planets in home, detriment, exaltation and fall were
prevalent. A bunch of planets retrograde, etc. -- Sort of a laundry
list of stuff like that and you count them all up and the more points
you have in that SR, the more likely a marriage.

She also lists connections of the SR for the year to the natal chart in
marrriage years. She does not go into comparing the two SRs and two
natals of the two people however, which I have found very enlightening.

This may be a difficult question, but if you had only one choice,

which method would you have >>>>more faith in describing the year
ahead?

You are right about it being difficult -- at first it was hands down
"Precessed SRs expressed Tropically" and I used only that one SR, but I
am waffling a bit partly because in looking back -- my PCSR had all
those planets in the 7th, but it was my husband's non-precessed that
had the Sun in the 7th of that year. I think another couple of years
of looking at them -- I may be able to answer that question, but for
now I feel compelled to use them both.

Have you relocated in other years with similar positive results

(based on what you were hoping for)?<<

I only relocated the once for a "big event" of finding a marriage --
though I was able to do the same for a couple of other women in NYC by
telling them where they should be on their BDs.

However, I have relocated to take the heat off of a really bad
configuration that would have been angular and I have relocated to put
a benefic on the cusp of the 2nd to trine the MC, but nothing else
really big.

I think this is a marvelous tool and you can use relocation to help
things turn out a bit better than they might have had you not relocated
on your BD. Since this is truly a "map" of your year.

[JAMES ARONIS]

Post by s***@yahoo.com
Thanks, James, for your very kind words!
James,

This may be a difficult question, but if you had only one choice,

which method would you have >>>>more faith in describing the year
ahead?
You are right about it being difficult -- at first it was hands down
"Precessed SRs expressed Tropically" and I used only that one SR, but I
am waffling a bit partly because in looking back -- my PCSR had all
those planets in the 7th, but it was my husband's non-precessed that
had the Sun in the 7th of that year. I think another couple of years
of looking at them -- I may be able to answer that question, but for
now I feel compelled to use them both.

I gather your husband's PCSR had no planets in the 7th at all then? It
could have been how he perceived marriage to begin with. As troubling as
it may seem when taken in a societal context as a whole, some people
simply don't view marriage as serious of a commitment as their spouses
or other couples. Some couples may have been living together for decades
and never married, but are far more committed to each other. All is
relative, and this may be reflected by the planets and aspects that may
or may not be present.

Post by s***@yahoo.com

Have you relocated in other years with similar positive results

(based on what you were hoping for)?<<
I only relocated the once for a "big event" of finding a marriage --
though I was able to do the same for a couple of other women in NYC by
telling them where they should be on their BDs.
However, I have relocated to take the heat off of a really bad
configuration that would have been angular and I have relocated to put
a benefic on the cusp of the 2nd to trine the MC, but nothing else
really big.
I think this is a marvelous tool and you can use relocation to help
things turn out a bit better than they might have had you not relocated
on your BD. Since this is truly a "map" of your year.

I have temporarily relocated once years ago in the interest of
ameliorating certain aspects and placements I saw which could have
resulted in financial difficulties. IIRC, the relocated chart also
showed an improved chance of getting involved in a new relationship.
Well, it turned out that I didn't have any financial problems; and I did
get into a renewed, albeit very short-lived, relationship with a former
girlfriend that year. I guess I could safely say that it was mostly a
success.

I have noticed that more and more astrologers including a few on this NG
are stating that temporary relocation is only effective if the
individual resides in the place of relocation for the entire year. A few
have even cited examples explaining why relocation did not work for them
and others they knew who tried it. We're two people who noticed things
actually did change. It's also possible that both charts may work for
that year, but then we would be juggling at least 4 single wheel SR
charts, not including all the multi-wheel combos. We have to draw the
line somewhere.

Since we have attempted this only once in our lives, perhaps that's
simply not enough to determine how effective relocation is on a
statistical basis. However, I am very tempted to try it again, maybe as
soon as my next birthday in May 2005. It can't hurt!

Thanks again,
James

[s***@yahoo.com]

Post by JAMES ARONIS
I gather your husband's PCSR had no planets in the 7th at all then? It
could have been how he perceived marriage to begin with. As troubling as
it may seem when taken in a societal context as a whole, some people
simply don't view marriage as serious of a commitment as their

spouses

Post by JAMES ARONIS
or other couples. Some couples may have been living together for decades
and never married, but are far more committed to each other. All is
relative, and this may be reflected by the planets and aspects that may
or may not be present.

He had Juno, which was my Juno return that year and Chiron there. I do
not go by "perceptions" of events by the holder of the person of the
SR.

It is a map of the year to be read by anyone with the enough knowledge
to read it and what the person who has the SR perceives is not really
an issue in my mind. It is either a legally sanctified marriage or not.

The Juno return of mine in his SR 7th house and my exact Ascendant
rising pretty much nails me as the marital partner in his coming
marriage. I had not even met him yet when he had this solar return in .

http://gxs.home.texas.net/Astro/SolarReturns/ManMarriage.html

Post by JAMES ARONIS
I have noticed that more and more astrologers including a few on this NG
are stating that temporary relocation is only effective if the
individual resides in the place of relocation for the entire > >

year.

Yes, well I guess those same people would relocate the natal chart if a
birth happened on a holiday in France and then the people returned back
to the US. IMO, the position on the earth at the moment of birth (or
when the Sun returns) is the chart. Simple.

I agree there would be a secondary "relocated" chart for where the
natal chart person was living with his family in the US. But his *real*
natal chart is still France, IMO.

The same thing is true for SRs. It IS where you ARE when the Sun
returns -- period. At least for that entire year.

Post by JAMES ARONIS
A few
have even cited examples explaining why relocation did not work for them
and others they knew who tried it. We're two people who noticed things
actually did change. It's also possible that both charts may work for
that year, but then we would be juggling at least 4 single wheel SR
charts, not including all the multi-wheel combos. We have to draw the
line somewhere.

People frequently taunt me with -- this did not work in my chart --
then I ask for the chart data and I review it and low and behold --
they left some really important thing out about it -- or they
disremembered what happened -- or they just misread the chart.

So I always take it with a grain of salt when someone says, "Didn't
work in my chart!" until I view the chart. People just love to disprove
theories without backing any statement up with actual data, IMO.

You only need to draw the line depending on how much data your
particular brain can grasp at one sitting. If you were an air traffic
controller -- you can look at hundreds of points all moving across a
radar screen and see where they are going and if there is jeopardy in
their movement toward others. After awhile in astrology as you add more
points -- the brain adjusts to using more points until -- a chart full
is not a big problem in fact it is even more affirming in the
descriptions.

Astrology is much the same as air traffic control IMO. It has to do
with how much data you can comfortably organize and read at once.

Post by JAMES ARONIS
Since we have attempted this only once in our lives, perhaps that's
simply not enough to determine how effective relocation is on a
statistical basis. However, I am very tempted to try it again, maybe as
soon as my next birthday in May 2005. It can't hurt!

I have "attempted" it several times and have helped others to relocate
their charts -- it is just a bit harder to prove specific results with
anything but a marriage chart or a big career move or something like
that.

The components need to be in the chart in order for you to turn the
wheel and make something happen by placing those configurations in
different houses that are more appropriate to your desires.

Good luck with 2005!

Post by JAMES ARONIS
Tanks again,

You are very welcome!

Post by JAMES ARONIS
James

[David Ames]

Post by JAMES ARONIS
I'm not certain if this topic has been discussed recently, but I'm
interested in knowing if anyone has observed precessed solar returns and
what they may have discovered versus the unprecessed SR? I have been
closely looking at my SR charts past and future, and noticed that some
of the precessed return charts more closely described the events of the
year. I'm interested in knowing anyone's personal observations.
James

I graduated from college aged 26. The effect of precession at that age
is almost 3/8 day. When I cast my solar return for that year, taking
precession into account, SR Moon conjoined my natal Mercury rather than
being 4 1/2 degrees distant.

David Ames