Pluto Trine Pluto is this possible?

[Bruce Ritchings]

Hello,
I just did a "synastry" chart on Liz Greene's www.astro.com website,
using today's date, Jan. 5, 2005, and my birthdate, Sept. 4, 1951. To
my surprise, it came up with an aspect I thought was impossible,
namely Pluto Trine Pluto. Don't you have to be at least 80 years old
to get this aspect? Obviously, I'm only 53. According to my natal
chart, Pluto was at 20 degrees 11 minutes of Leo when I was born, and
now supposedly Pluto is at 22 degrees 52 minutes of Sagittarius. Can
anybody tell me if those coordinates give you a true trine?
If so, does anybody care to venture to guess what sort of aspect
Pluto Trine Pluto will turn out to be for me? (tenth house natal Pluto
to second house transitting Pluto). Robert Hand doesn't even have this
aspect listed in his Planets in Transit--presumbly he must have
thought that nobody would live that long, which is what's making me
wonder if there isn't some calculation error here. If anybody's got
any insights here, I'd love to hear 'em! Tx. B

[Di-a-rama]

Post by Bruce Ritchings
According to my natal
chart, Pluto was at 20 degrees 11 minutes of Leo when I was born, and
now supposedly Pluto is at 22 degrees 52 minutes of Sagittarius.

If this is the case, the transit has already passed.

Cheers,
Dianne

[John Roth]

Post by Bruce Ritchings
Hello,
I just did a "synastry" chart on Liz Greene's www.astro.com website,
using today's date, Jan. 5, 2005, and my birthdate, Sept. 4, 1951. To
my surprise, it came up with an aspect I thought was impossible,
namely Pluto Trine Pluto. Don't you have to be at least 80 years old
to get this aspect?

Pluto's rate of motion varies radically depending on where
it is in its orbit. It takes, for example, ten years to get through
Scorpio, and well over fifty to get through the opposite sign,
Taurus. Statements about when Pluto trine Pluto occurs
that you find in delineation cookbooks are usually wrong
even when the author has actually bothered to make a calculation
rather than simply repeat what they remember from their
teacher.

John Roth

[Chris Mitchell]

Post by John Roth
Pluto's rate of motion varies radically depending on where
it is in its orbit. It takes, for example, ten years to get through
Scorpio, and well over fifty to get through the opposite sign,
Taurus. Statements about when Pluto trine Pluto occurs
that you find in delineation cookbooks are usually wrong
even when the author has actually bothered to make a calculation
rather than simply repeat what they remember from their
teacher.
John Roth

Absolutely - and the confusion has been carried on by Rob Hand's
otherwise excellent book "Planets in Transit". He says of Pluto trine
Pluto "In this century [he meant the 20th] this transit has happened
only to people when they are in their eighties and nineties."

That wasn't true by the end of the 20th century.

[Sharyn]

Post by Chris Mitchell

Post by John Roth
Pluto's rate of motion varies radically depending on where
it is in its orbit. It takes, for example, ten years to get through
Scorpio, and well over fifty to get through the opposite sign,
Taurus. Statements about when Pluto trine Pluto occurs
that you find in delineation cookbooks are usually wrong
even when the author has actually bothered to make a calculation
rather than simply repeat what they remember from their
teacher.
John Roth

Absolutely - and the confusion has been carried on by Rob Hand's
otherwise excellent book "Planets in Transit". He says of Pluto trine
Pluto "In this century [he meant the 20th] this transit has happened
only to people when they are in their eighties and nineties."
That wasn't true by the end of the 20th century.

As excellent as PIT is, all cookbooks are like interstate road maps. They
point you in the right direction, but they can't give much detail about
what you'll find along the way.

[John Roth]

Post by Chris Mitchell

Post by John Roth
Pluto's rate of motion varies radically depending on where
it is in its orbit. It takes, for example, ten years to get through
Scorpio, and well over fifty to get through the opposite sign,
Taurus. Statements about when Pluto trine Pluto occurs
that you find in delineation cookbooks are usually wrong
even when the author has actually bothered to make a calculation
rather than simply repeat what they remember from their
teacher.
John Roth

Absolutely - and the confusion has been carried on by Rob Hand's
otherwise excellent book "Planets in Transit". He says of Pluto trine
Pluto "In this century [he meant the 20th] this transit has happened
only to people when they are in their eighties and nineties."
That wasn't true by the end of the 20th century.

After I wrote the above, I did a quick ephemeris check, and I
got a minimum of about 53 years. It seems to be very broad: I
was around 53 to 54 when the trine occured, and I was born
quite a few years before Pluto hit 15 Virgo (which is where the
middle of Scorpio falls on the trine midpoint.)

So the answer seems to be that anyone born from the 1930s
through about 1990 would have it at age 53 or a couple of
years later. Before or after that the age starts going up fairly
rapidly.

John Roth

[Vivian]

Guess, I will take a stab at an insight since I am slightly older and
have already been through it and my husband is currently going through
it. First, since it is Pluto, which I see as generational, I would see
it more as a transformation in the entire generation to which you
belong and how your own opinions and experience of the universe have
made permanent, Plutonian, changes in the world. Next, I think house
placement would be a defining factor, since your placement has to do
with a natal 10th house, you are transformed by the respect that you
gain or lost from others. This might indicate that when you were
younger this was very important to you. With a transit from the second
house, you may now understand the importance of your values opposed to
the values of others. Since it is a trine of fire signs, you should
find this whole scenerio is about actions and activities, not about
philosophy, thinking or emotional states of mind and that the
transition came without cognitive intention. There should be an
obvious change, positive to negative or negative to positve. The trine
does not necessarily mean that things got better, just that you did not
work at it but that it was a force outside of yourself that made it
happen. Often, this may manifest as factories closing, old secrets
being revealed etc.
Vivian

[KelL]

In article <***@4ax.com>,
Bruce Ritchings <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

!Hello,
! I just did a "synastry" chart on Liz Greene's www.astro.com website,
!using today's date, Jan. 5, 2005, and my birthdate, Sept. 4, 1951. To
!my surprise, it came up with an aspect I thought was impossible,
!namely Pluto Trine Pluto. Don't you have to be at least 80 years old
!to get this aspect? Obviously, I'm only 53. According to my natal
!chart, Pluto was at 20 degrees 11 minutes of Leo when I was born, and
!now supposedly Pluto is at 22 degrees 52 minutes of Sagittarius. Can
!anybody tell me if those coordinates give you a true trine?
! If so, does anybody care to venture to guess what sort of aspect
!Pluto Trine Pluto will turn out to be for me? (tenth house natal Pluto
!to second house transitting Pluto). Robert Hand doesn't even have this
!aspect listed in his Planets in Transit--presumbly he must have
!thought that nobody would live that long, which is what's making me
!wonder if there isn't some calculation error here. If anybody's got
!any insights here, I'd love to hear 'em! Tx. B

I just looked at my forecast over at astro.com and this is what Pluto ?
Pluto says for me (pluto is in my 4th house):


Pluto trine Pluto: Up to you

Beginning of February 2005 until end of November 2006: This is a period
of stability, in which very deep and perseverant energies lend
themselves to you. Whether you make use of them or not is completely up
to you. However, if you do decide to use them, there will be potential
for inner growth. From this position you can gain deep insights into the
functioning of your psyche which might have shocked you at other times.

You get more interested into the deep questions about change and
metamorphosis, death, birth and regeneration. You will decline any
explanation that doesn't truly touch the heart of the matter. However,
you could show this very attitude also towards less profound issues.

[Christine]

Post by Bruce Ritchings
Hello,
I just did a "synastry" chart on Liz Greene's www.astro.com website,
using today's date, Jan. 5, 2005, and my birthdate, Sept. 4, 1951. To
my surprise, it came up with an aspect I thought was impossible,
namely Pluto Trine Pluto. Don't you have to be at least 80 years old
to get this aspect? Obviously, I'm only 53. According to my natal
chart, Pluto was at 20 degrees 11 minutes of Leo when I was born, and
now supposedly Pluto is at 22 degrees 52 minutes of Sagittarius. Can
anybody tell me if those coordinates give you a true trine?
If so, does anybody care to venture to guess what sort of aspect
Pluto Trine Pluto will turn out to be for me? (tenth house natal Pluto
to second house transitting Pluto). Robert Hand doesn't even have this
aspect listed in his Planets in Transit--presumbly he must have
thought that nobody would live that long, which is what's making me
wonder if there isn't some calculation error here.

Hi Bruce,
At the time 'Planets in Transit' was written in the 70's, Robert Hand would
have had few clients' and/or personal experiences to get a handle on what
the trine signified because no one had lived long enough to 'consciously' go
through it and be aware of what it involved. As Pluto has moved into and
through the short circuit of its elliptical orbit of the sun, the effect of
the trine aspect is one of which the 50+ generations for several decades
will become aware as our (great)grandparents, who did live through the
effect of the Pluto square that disrupted their lives, never were.

I think the Pluto in Leo generation, of which I am one of the early ones, is
the one that underwent 'the power of the individual force', first as a
result of the dictatorial forces outside themselves that took control
of/over their lives and which have gradually been swept away as the creative
expression of individuality within each of us has reared its ugly head, so
to speak :-). It has brought forth a rather self-centred society in many
respects, in which a 'Blow you, Jack, I'm alright' attitude has become
precedent.

Yet, as I have understood it, Pluto totally destroys a particular way of
life to create something totally new in its place, leaving nothing of the
old way in tact to rebuild upon. This suggests to me that the Pluto in Leo
generation demand their rights of individual expression, only to find, in
the long run, that individuality is only a 'personal necessity' for some
reason or the other, yet is pretty irrelevant, insignificant and ant-like
when seen within the greater context of, and compared to the natural forces
outside themselves that appear to regulate life on the planet. The recent
tsunami disaster has surely brought that home in an entirely different way
than the 11 Sept. attack did. Yet that personal creative expression, when
used non-selfishly, can disturb, disrupt and move otherwise seemingly
inpenetrable mountains (probably during Pluto in Capricorn :-) ). I think
Pluto's transit through Sagittarius, which is a social sign, has much of
'for the benefit of all' about it.

If anybody's got

Post by Bruce Ritchings
any insights here, I'd love to hear 'em! Tx. B
From your information, it might be that Scorpio is, or is in, your

Ascendant/12th-1st house. This makes Pluto's force of will a very personal
issue in terms of (not) showing the world (or dad) the stuff you're made of.
Other than the sextile to Neptune in Libra, Pluto appears to be
unaspected....although the wide conjunction to Mars in Leo is going to
produce dynamite and add fuel to an already inner roaring fire. A bulldozer
comes to mind :-). The Pluto square itself took place in its own sign. This
would suggest a personal emotional trauma or intense period of some kind,
( maybe through another bulldozer!) that completely turned your personal
world as you had created it, upside down and devastated everything you saw
as being personally important to you. In some facet of your personal life,
you were forced to face a new situation that also changed you. It gradually
became easier to allow what was for what it was and not influence this 'new'
you. As tr. Pluto in Sagittarius trined itself several times throughout the
course of last year, you may have found yourself reaping the benefits or
rewards from this 'new' facet of life. Obviously, it would be great if it
was of materially and financial (2nd house) value to you but, with
Sagittarius as a dual sign, it may be benefits of another conscious-raising
kind. I found myself constantly thinking/saying how priviledged I was for
this, that or the other, or 'there but for the grace of God go I', that had
often been taken for granted yet never truly recognised for its value
before. With Sagittarius, it could involve health/welfare/legal issues.

It would be wonderful if, as a result of this awareness of your blessings,
you could give something of your creative self in the spirit of
Sagittarius that would benefit the world around you.

Continued happiness to you.
Christine.

[John Roth]

Post by Christine

Post by Bruce Ritchings
Hello,
I just did a "synastry" chart on Liz Greene's www.astro.com website,
using today's date, Jan. 5, 2005, and my birthdate, Sept. 4, 1951. To
my surprise, it came up with an aspect I thought was impossible,
namely Pluto Trine Pluto. Don't you have to be at least 80 years old
to get this aspect? Obviously, I'm only 53. According to my natal
chart, Pluto was at 20 degrees 11 minutes of Leo when I was born, and
now supposedly Pluto is at 22 degrees 52 minutes of Sagittarius. Can
anybody tell me if those coordinates give you a true trine?
If so, does anybody care to venture to guess what sort of aspect
Pluto Trine Pluto will turn out to be for me? (tenth house natal Pluto
to second house transitting Pluto). Robert Hand doesn't even have this
aspect listed in his Planets in Transit--presumbly he must have
thought that nobody would live that long, which is what's making me
wonder if there isn't some calculation error here.

Hi Bruce,
At the time 'Planets in Transit' was written in the 70's, Robert Hand would
have had few clients' and/or personal experiences to get a handle on what
the trine signified because no one had lived long enough to 'consciously' go
through it and be aware of what it involved.

The criticism of Rob Hand has nothing to do with his
delineation (or lack thereof). It's his blatently incorrect
statement that it only occurs for people in their 80s and
90s. Someone who was born in 1900 would have been
78, but the age goes down rapidly from there. Someone
born in 1910 would have been 71 or 72, someone
born in 1920 would have been 66, and someone born
in 1930 would have been 61. By 1940 it was down to
around 56, approaching the minimum of 53. For someone
born in 2000, it would be back up to around 77.

John Roth

Post by Christine
Continued happiness to you.
Christine.

[Christine]

[..]

Post by John Roth

Post by Christine
Hi Bruce,
At the time 'Planets in Transit' was written in the 70's, Robert Hand would
have had few clients' and/or personal experiences to get a handle on what
the trine signified because no one had lived long enough to

'consciously'

Post by John Roth

Post by Christine
go
through it and be aware of what it involved.

The criticism of Rob Hand has nothing to do with his
delineation (or lack thereof). It's his blatently incorrect
statement that it only occurs for people in their 80s and
90s. Someone who was born in 1900 would have been
78, but the age goes down rapidly from there. Someone
born in 1910 would have been 71 or 72, someone
born in 1920 would have been 66,

I didn't look far enough back in the ephemeris to check that. Seems neither
he or I did our homework correctly:-)
'Planets in Transit' was published in 1976. My copy is from the 11th
printing in 1985. There is no appendix added, so he didn't apparently make
any alterations to, or correct any statements within the the original,
including PLUTO TRINE PLUTO (page 518) quote:
'In this century, this transit has happened only to people when they are in
their eighties and nineties. I have had no opportunity to observe their
effects............",
which you have proven above to be incorrect.

I wonder why this was never pointed out to him and corrected? Maybe he
considered it an insignificant detail.

The general opinion of the elder generation seems to always be, " Things
have changed; nothing is the same as when I was young.'
Seems to signify Pluto trine Pluto in a nutshell :-)

Regards,
Christine.

and someone born

Post by John Roth
in 1930 would have been 61. By 1940 it was down to
around 56, approaching the minimum of 53. For someone
born in 2000, it would be back up to around 77.
John Roth

Post by Christine
Continued happiness to you.
Christine.

[Ray Murphy]

----------

Post by John Roth

Post by Christine

Post by Bruce Ritchings
Hello,
I just did a "synastry" chart on Liz Greene's www.astro.com website,
using today's date, Jan. 5, 2005, and my birthdate, Sept. 4, 1951. To
my surprise, it came up with an aspect I thought was impossible,
namely Pluto Trine Pluto. Don't you have to be at least 80 years old
to get this aspect? Obviously, I'm only 53. According to my natal
chart, Pluto was at 20 degrees 11 minutes of Leo when I was born, and
now supposedly Pluto is at 22 degrees 52 minutes of Sagittarius. Can
anybody tell me if those coordinates give you a true trine?
If so, does anybody care to venture to guess what sort of aspect
Pluto Trine Pluto will turn out to be for me? (tenth house natal Pluto
to second house transitting Pluto). Robert Hand doesn't even have this
aspect listed in his Planets in Transit--presumbly he must have
thought that nobody would live that long, which is what's making me
wonder if there isn't some calculation error here.

Hi Bruce,
At the time 'Planets in Transit' was written in the 70's, Robert Hand would
have had few clients' and/or personal experiences to get a handle on what
the trine signified because no one had lived long enough to 'consciously' go
through it and be aware of what it involved.

The criticism of Rob Hand has nothing to do with his
delineation (or lack thereof). It's his blatently incorrect
statement that it only occurs for people in their 80s and
90s.

RM: Yes such a statement would be incorrect if it was made, but Rob
Hand is too careful to make such an error.
He actually said [in his 1976 book] "In this century, this transit has
happened only to people when they are in their eighties and nineties".
He was therefore referring to people born about 80 -100 years earlier
- meaning roughly 1876-1896. This would fit with your figures below.

Post by John Roth
Someone who was born in 1900 would have been
78, but the age goes down rapidly from there. Someone
born in 1910 would have been 71 or 72, someone
born in 1920 would have been 66, and someone born
in 1930 would have been 61. By 1940 it was down to
around 56, approaching the minimum of 53. For someone
born in 2000, it would be back up to around 77.
John Roth

Ray

[David Hecht]

A few years ago, all three outer planets were trining their natal
positions in my chart at the same time. With pluto at the mid-point of a
trine from uranus to neptune natally, I was hoping for something
exciting. Didn't happen!

or did it?

[CFA]

Post by David Hecht
A few years ago, all three outer planets were trining their natal
positions in my chart at the same time. With pluto at the mid-point of a
trine from uranus to neptune natally, I was hoping for something
exciting. Didn't happen!

or did it?

Yes- nothing happened.

Ken

[Christine]

Post by David Hecht
A few years ago, all three outer planets were trining their natal
positions in my chart at the same time. With pluto at the mid-point of a
trine from uranus to neptune natally, I was hoping for something
exciting. Didn't happen!

or did it?

This surprises me after your profound statement in a recent post that a
transiting planet in a house will enhance its natal meaning:-)
Maybe you were expecting something of a 'super' natural nature to happen to
you, personally, and failed to see any subtle changes in your attitudes to
life in general. A few years back, the world was awoken by the effects of
9-11 for example.
Did this date and its effects pass you by with no change in you at all?

Just curious :-)
Christine.

[Ray Murphy]

----------

Post by Christine

Post by David Hecht
A few years ago, all three outer planets were trining their natal
positions in my chart at the same time. With pluto at the mid-point of a
trine from uranus to neptune natally, I was hoping for something
exciting. Didn't happen!

or did it?

This surprises me after your profound statement in a recent post that a
transiting planet in a house will enhance its natal meaning:-)
Maybe you were expecting something of a 'super' natural nature to happen to
you, personally, and failed to see any subtle changes in your attitudes to
life in general. A few years back, the world was awoken by the effects of
9-11 for example.
Did this date and its effects pass you by with no change in you at all?

RM: That would be one of the stupidist questions you've ever asked.
Incidentally, the world was not "awoken" by that extremely violent
attack. We were mostly shocked by the instant outbreak of guerilla
warfare in several cities. The potential for terrorist bombing is
always present in every place, but moreso since an airline passenger
said to the pilot in the 1960 's "Take me to Cuba!!".

It's the same for the terrorists -- they won't suddenly be "awoken"
either. Australia's government has broadcast that they are being
hunted in many countries and some of them are regularly having some
"very unlucky days" where nothing goes right - without any breaches of
any country's sovereignty.

Post by Christine
Just curious :-)
Christine.

Ray

[Christine]

Post by Ray Murphy
----------

Post by Christine

Post by David Hecht
A few years ago, all three outer planets were trining their natal
positions in my chart at the same time. With pluto at the mid-point of a
trine from uranus to neptune natally, I was hoping for something
exciting. Didn't happen!

or did it?

This surprises me after your profound statement in a recent post that a
transiting planet in a house will enhance its natal meaning:-)
Maybe you were expecting something of a 'super' natural nature to happen to
you, personally, and failed to see any subtle changes in your attitudes to
life in general. A few years back, the world was awoken by the effects of
9-11 for example.
Did this date and its effects pass you by with no change in you at all?

RM: That would be one of the stupidist questions you've ever asked.

I appear to still be in form then, although I do wonder since when asking
questions is stupid.

Post by Ray Murphy
Incidentally, the world was not "awoken" by that extremely violent
attack. We were mostly shocked

Awoken or shocked...the enlightenment towards what was happening in the
world was still the same


by the instant outbreak of guerilla

Post by Ray Murphy
warfare in several cities. The potential for terrorist bombing is
always present in every place, but moreso since an airline passenger
said to the pilot in the 1960 's "Take me to Cuba!!".
It's the same for the terrorists -- they won't suddenly be "awoken"
either. Australia's government has broadcast that they are being
hunted in many countries and some of them are regularly having some
"very unlucky days" where nothing goes right - without any breaches of
any country's sovereignty.

Do you know what I noticed most the last two weeks? The world's eyes and
hearts have been drawn towards and shown empathy with the victims of the
Tsunami disaster, and I didn't read a single word about terrorists,
religious misunderstandings, racial discrimination, cultural differences
and, especially, hate between its people. If that's the legacy the Tsunami
victims leave behind, there is hope for the rest of us that terrorism will
not prevail.

Post by Ray Murphy

Post by Christine
Christine.

Ray

[Vivian]

I concur with your comments about Pluto transits often being
consciouness raising events. Also of the Pluto in Leo generation, it
was a Pluto transit that started me on my envolvement and study of
astrology. I was an owner of a small business in a small rural town in
western Ohio and was interested in keeping our downtown alive. I was
helping filling in for my sister at her business in another small town
in a neighboring county one and there was very little to do. I was
bored and decided to look at the phone book to see what types of
businesses that they might have that we might entice to come to our
downtown. I found a listing for Astrologer and had always been
slightly interested. I picked up the phone and gave her a call to find
out if she could do my chart but not give me a reading. I just wanted
to have my own chart to explore whenever I was reading something about
astrology. Conservative Christian upbringing and I was president of
the women's fellowship. She said sure and that I could pick the chart
up anytime, I asked when they closed and she closed before I would be
so she said and I did not know when I would be back in town. She was
only charging me two dollars for a computer generated chart , so she
volunteered to do it for free if I could just write it down myself.
Having no idea what I was doing, I agreed. She called back in a few
minutes with the data and started off with a "And I thought my life was
a bitch!" She had my attention immediately. "What happened to you
last fall? It had to be traumatic! The worst is over but it is a two
year transit. Last fall, in the first few days of October? Do you
have any idea what I am talking about?" Sure, I knew. My husband had
almost been killed in a faming accident on Oct 4, 1986. I had four
children, a dairy farm to run, my own hairdressing business and did not
know if he would live. He lived but we had to sell the cows, he went
into depression and would not face it, our already stressed out
finances and marriage were about to explode and within two years, I
took my kids and got a divorce after twenty years of marriage. My
devoted church did not come to our aid and my whole philosophly of life
changed. I realized that I had to live my life and not the life that
others wanted me to live. Pluto had transited my Mid/Venus in Scorpio
conjuction that was part of a Mars/Jupiter in Capricorn sextile Saturn
in trine Uranus in Gemni with Uranus and Mars/Jupiter/Asc opposition
making a bowl configuration, five of my natal planets being hit at
once. Next transit by Pluto to this configuration will be when Pluto
hits my Mars/Capricorn/Asc so I guess, I will get to find out if what I
think I learnt is really valid. For me, once of the most valued
aspects of Astrology is to reflect back on your life and see what you
have learnt and why it was so important. Although others are able to
see the material, worldly details while I was going through it, only my
family was able to see that the real transformation was on a
consciousness-raising level.

Vivian

[Christine]

Post by Vivian
I concur with your comments about Pluto transits often being
consciouness raising events.

Hi,
I think it is Pluto that, for the 'in Leo' generation made us aware of our
individuality as a person rather than, or within, a family/society/group
member. I think the 'conscious-raising' aspect of the deal comes from
Sagittarius, the half animal-half man sign, that offers and enables a person
to rise above the basic and animal instincts of its nature to the human
creature 'made in God's image'.
My personal feeling is that the preceeding sign, Scorpio, brings up and
deals with those basic instincts, and then Sagittarius offers the choice to
live with them or move on.......but that is open to discussion :-)

Also of the Pluto in Leo generation, it

Post by Vivian
was a Pluto transit that started me on my envolvement and study of
astrology. I was an owner of a small business in a small rural town in
western Ohio and was interested in keeping our downtown alive. I was
helping filling in for my sister at her business in another small town
in a neighboring county one and there was very little to do. I was
bored and decided to look at the phone book to see what types of
businesses that they might have that we might entice to come to our
downtown. I found a listing for Astrologer and had always been
slightly interested. I picked up the phone and gave her a call to find
out if she could do my chart but not give me a reading. I just wanted
to have my own chart to explore whenever I was reading something about
astrology.

My own introduction to astrology was when I picked up a book that had been
incorrectly replaced in the 'folk sagas' section of the library ! Six months
private study and I had too many questions that remained unanswered. The
month I found the courage to pick up the phone and ring Holland's most
well-known astrologer to recommend a teacher, transiting Uranus crossed my
I.C. It retrograded, *picked up* the sextile to Neptune again, turned direct
and crossed I.C. again when I started taking lessons. The recommended
teacher was a Pisces Sun- Sagittarius Ascendant. Transiting Neptune in
Sagittarius opposed my natal 10th house Saturn. Wow! Talk about
conscious-raising; did she provide another view to life's possibilities and
meaning?! :-) Tr. Pluto was moving toward the square with the true NN in
Cancer 11th-SN in 5th house axis. After 3 years she sent me into the world
and I began giving lessons/readings on a small 'private' scale. Tr. Pluto
squared the mean NN in Leo. [This also leads me to believe there is a
difference in meaning between true and mean nodes (inner and outer
experience?) ]

Post by Vivian
Conservative Christian upbringing and I was president of
the women's fellowship. She said sure and that I could pick the chart
up anytime, I asked when they closed and she closed before I would be
so she said and I did not know when I would be back in town. She was
only charging me two dollars for a computer generated chart , so she
volunteered to do it for free if I could just write it down myself.
Having no idea what I was doing, I agreed. She called back in a few
minutes with the data and started off with a "And I thought my life was
a bitch!" She had my attention immediately. "What happened to you
last fall? It had to be traumatic! The worst is over but it is a two
year transit. Last fall, in the first few days of October? Do you
have any idea what I am talking about?" Sure, I knew. My husband had
almost been killed in a faming accident on Oct 4, 1986. I had four
children, a dairy farm to run, my own hairdressing business and did not
know if he would live. He lived but we had to sell the cows, he went
into depression and would not face it, our already stressed out
finances and marriage were about to explode and within two years, I
took my kids and got a divorce after twenty years of marriage.

My

Post by Vivian
devoted church did not come to our aid and my whole philosophly of life
changed. I realized that I had to live my life and not the life that
others wanted me to live.

Sounds familiar :-)

Pluto had transited my Mid/Venus in Scorpio

Post by Vivian
conjuction that was part of a Mars/Jupiter in Capricorn sextile Saturn
in trine Uranus in Gemni with Uranus and Mars/Jupiter/Asc opposition
making a bowl configuration, five of my natal planets being hit at
once.

'Mid' refers to Midheaven? We share the Uranus in Gemini as well, but I
can't place Saturn's sign to make a sextile to Capricorn whilst Uranus is
still in Gemini. Could it be a Saturn in Virgo, which would explain a
certain instilled conservatism?


Next transit by Pluto to this configuration will be when Pluto

Post by Vivian
hits my Mars/Capricorn/Asc so I guess, I will get to find out if what I
think I learnt is really valid. For me, once of the most valued
aspects of Astrology is to reflect back on your life and see what you
have learnt and why it was so important. Although others are able to
see the material, worldly details while I was going through it, only my
family was able to see that the real transformation was on a
consciousness-raising level.
Vivian

I can say something similar, but such personal conscious-raising insights
aren't always appreciated by others because their own awareness is from
and/or takes in another perspective. Conscious-raising is a strictly
positive individual affair for the Tr. Pluto trine Pluto in Leo generation
but will be experienced in an entirely different manner for the following
generations; e.g for Virgo the Capricorn constructiveness of their
'discriminative abilities'; for Libra the Aquarian independence of their
'social abilities'. Imho.

Regards,
Christine.

[Vivian]

I knew all those sextiles would be confusing. I have Mars2Cap, Jupiter
3 Cap, Asc 7 Cap, Venus 4Scorpio, Midhaven1 Scorpio, Saturn 5 Virgo and
Uranus at critical 29Gemini, Desc a nice little bowl. Merc is 0 Sag
and Sun 7Sag so they are at the midhaven to my MarsJupAsc Sextile to
Venus/Mid. Sorry, for the confusion at I was referring to Saturn being
Sextile Venus. Also gives me a nice little set of Trines. I have Moon
in Scorpio inconj my Pluto in Leo/Neptune in Libra Sextile but I have a
real active Merc/Sun square Saturn that gives me enough challenges to
get through.
I actually think of myself as a true rebel during the sixties as I went
against my peers and wanted to settle down, raise a family in a
consevative church. All that Capricorn and Saturn combined, so
traditionalism became my rebellion. Then, when they all grew out of
their hippie days, I went against tradition and began to study
astrology and psychic arts. One of my coworkers best described me as a
hippy Dr Spock. We will be talking about something rather absolute,
well defined and logical in a scientific way and then I just flipp to
my more experiential point of view and talk about UFO's.

[Christine]

Post by Vivian
I knew all those sextiles would be confusing. I have Mars2Cap, Jupiter
3 Cap, Asc 7 Cap, Venus 4Scorpio, Midhaven1 Scorpio, Saturn 5 Virgo and
Uranus at critical 29Gemini, Desc a nice little bowl. Merc is 0 Sag
and Sun 7Sag so they are at the midhaven to my MarsJupAsc Sextile to
Venus/Mid. Sorry, for the confusion at I was referring to Saturn being
Sextile Venus. Also gives me a nice little set of Trines. I have Moon
in Scorpio inconj my Pluto in Leo/Neptune in Libra Sextile but I have a
real active Merc/Sun square Saturn that gives me enough challenges to
get through.

With all that lot in the 1st decanate of the signs, you should start a
thread of your experiences with and during transiting Uranus in Pisces.

Post by Vivian
I actually think of myself as a true rebel during the sixties as I went
against my peers and wanted to settle down, raise a family in a
consevative church. All that Capricorn and Saturn combined, so
traditionalism became my rebellion. Then, when they all grew out of
their hippie days, I went against tradition and began to study
astrology and psychic arts.

One of my coworkers best described me as a

Post by Vivian
hippy Dr Spock. We will be talking about something rather absolute,
well defined and logical in a scientific way and then I just flipp to
my more experiential point of view and talk about UFO's.

Would that be a result of Neptune in Aquarius or Uranus in Pisces ? :-)

Regards,
Christine.

[Ray Murphy]

----------

Post by Christine

Post by Bruce Ritchings
Hello,
I just did a "synastry" chart on Liz Greene's www.astro.com website,
using today's date, Jan. 5, 2005, and my birthdate, Sept. 4, 1951. To
my surprise, it came up with an aspect I thought was impossible,
namely Pluto Trine Pluto. Don't you have to be at least 80 years old
to get this aspect? Obviously, I'm only 53. According to my natal
chart, Pluto was at 20 degrees 11 minutes of Leo when I was born, and
now supposedly Pluto is at 22 degrees 52 minutes of Sagittarius. Can
anybody tell me if those coordinates give you a true trine?
If so, does anybody care to venture to guess what sort of aspect
Pluto Trine Pluto will turn out to be for me? (tenth house natal Pluto
to second house transitting Pluto). Robert Hand doesn't even have this
aspect listed in his Planets in Transit--presumbly he must have
thought that nobody would live that long, which is what's making me
wonder if there isn't some calculation error here.

Hi Bruce,
At the time 'Planets in Transit' was written in the 70's, Robert Hand would
have had few clients' and/or personal experiences to get a handle on what
the trine signified because no one had lived long enough to 'consciously' go
through it and be aware of what it involved.

RM: Rob Hand mentioned in his book that he had "No opportunity to
observe it's effects". He also mentioned that the transit has only
happened to people in their 80's and 90's. He added that he expected
the trine to be like the sextile - which he described in detail.

.>As Pluto has moved into and

Post by Christine
through the short circuit of its elliptical orbit of the sun, the effect of
the trine aspect is one of which the 50+ generations for several decades
will become aware as our (great)grandparents, who did live through the
effect of the Pluto square that disrupted their lives, never were.

RM: We probably only need to look at what happened when people had the
sextile if we really want answers.

Post by Christine
I think the Pluto in Leo generation, of which I am one of the early ones, is
the one that underwent 'the power of the individual force', first as a
result of the dictatorial forces outside themselves that took control
of/over their lives and which have gradually been swept away as the creative
expression of individuality within each of us has reared its ugly head, so
to speak :-). It has brought forth a rather self-centred society in many
respects, in which a 'Blow you, Jack, I'm alright' attitude has become
precedent.
Yet, as I have understood it, Pluto totally destroys a particular way of
life to create something totally new in its place, leaving nothing of the
old way in tact to rebuild upon. This suggests to me that the Pluto in Leo
generation demand their rights of individual expression, only to find, in
the long run, that individuality is only a 'personal necessity' for some
reason or the other, yet is pretty irrelevant, insignificant and ant-like
when seen within the greater context of, and compared to the natural forces
outside themselves that appear to regulate life on the planet.

RM: This illusion of children and youth "demanding more rights" only
occurred in some places after WWII when working wives in some
countries got a taste for more freedom and independence after being
forced into the workforce.. This was pushed along by technology ---
cars, television, record-players and transistor radios. The women had
to support the young ones "rights" in order to keep pushing for more
of their own.
Apparently Pluto didn't work in poor countries though :-))


[......]

Post by Christine
Christine.

Ray

[Christine]

Post by Ray Murphy
----------

Post by Christine
Hi Bruce,
At the time 'Planets in Transit' was written in the 70's, Robert Hand would
have had few clients' and/or personal experiences to get a handle on what
the trine signified because no one had lived long enough to 'consciously' go
through it and be aware of what it involved.

RM: Rob Hand mentioned in his book that he had "No opportunity to
observe it's effects". He also mentioned that the transit has only
happened to people in their 80's and 90's. He added that he expected
the trine to be like the sextile - which he described in detail.
.>As Pluto has moved into and

Post by Christine
through the short circuit of its elliptical orbit of the sun, the effect of
the trine aspect is one of which the 50+ generations for several decades
will become aware as our (great)grandparents, who did live through the
effect of the Pluto square that disrupted their lives, never were.

RM: We probably only need to look at what happened when people had the
sextile if we really want answers.

Why? Because that is what Hand wrote to explain his non-observations, in
which the important word in the sentance was *expected* ?
I have an very good Dutch astrology book which states something entirely
different. Does that make it.. or Hand...incorrect?

Post by Ray Murphy

Post by Christine
I think the Pluto in Leo generation, of which I am one of the early ones, is
the one that underwent 'the power of the individual force', first as a
result of the dictatorial forces outside themselves that took control
of/over their lives and which have gradually been swept away as the creative
expression of individuality within each of us has reared its ugly head, so
to speak :-). It has brought forth a rather self-centred society in many
respects, in which a 'Blow you, Jack, I'm alright' attitude has become
precedent.
Yet, as I have understood it, Pluto totally destroys a particular way of
life to create something totally new in its place, leaving nothing of the
old way in tact to rebuild upon. This suggests to me that the Pluto in Leo
generation demand their rights of individual expression, only to find, in
the long run, that individuality is only a 'personal necessity' for some
reason or the other, yet is pretty irrelevant, insignificant and ant-like
when seen within the greater context of, and compared to the natural forces
outside themselves that appear to regulate life on the planet.

RM: This illusion of children and youth "demanding more rights" only
occurred in some places after WWII when working wives in some
countries got a taste for more freedom and independence after being
forced into the workforce..

It also followed the Pluto is Aries, Taurus, Gemini and Cancer generations,
from which the importance of the individual had generated and grown. Pluto
in Leo made it a conscious act, as a result of an egomaniacal monster or
two.


This was pushed along by technology ---

Post by Ray Murphy
cars, television, record-players and transistor radios.

The women had

Post by Ray Murphy
to support the young ones "rights" in order to keep pushing for more
of their own.

I believe that was already going on at the beginning of the 20th century! In
those days, women were fighting for the equality of being heard (Gemini),
not their individuality (Leo).

Post by Ray Murphy
Apparently Pluto didn't work in poor countries though :-))

*In poor countries*, the women did.....and probably still do... all the work
anyway.
It's unfortunate that your personal *illusion* of the Pluto in Leo
generational impact refers to one element of it only, and that the free will
and private enterprise that evolved from or through it and has gradually
taken over from the family/master/government controlled development of one's
life, has gone unnoticed by you.

Post by Ray Murphy
[......]

Post by Christine
Christine.

Ray

[Ray Murphy]

----------

Post by Christine

Post by Ray Murphy
----------

Post by Christine
Hi Bruce,
At the time 'Planets in Transit' was written in the 70's, Robert Hand

would

Post by Ray Murphy

Post by Christine
have had few clients' and/or personal experiences to get a handle on what
the trine signified because no one had lived long enough to 'consciously'

go

Post by Ray Murphy

Post by Christine
through it and be aware of what it involved.

RM: Rob Hand mentioned in his book that he had "No opportunity to
observe it's effects". He also mentioned that the transit has only
happened to people in their 80's and 90's. He added that he expected
the trine to be like the sextile - which he described in detail.
.>As Pluto has moved into and

Post by Christine
through the short circuit of its elliptical orbit of the sun, the effect

of

Post by Ray Murphy

Post by Christine
the trine aspect is one of which the 50+ generations for several decades
will become aware as our (great)grandparents, who did live through the
effect of the Pluto square that disrupted their lives, never were.

RM: We probably only need to look at what happened when people had the
sextile if we really want answers.

Why? Because that is what Hand wrote to explain his non-observations, in
which the important word in the sentance was *expected* ?

RM: No, because sextiles work like trines.

Post by Christine
I have an very good Dutch astrology book which states something entirely
different. Does that make it.. or Hand...incorrect?

RM: I've never known Rob Hand to write anything that wasn't correct.

Post by Christine

Post by Ray Murphy

Post by Christine
I think the Pluto in Leo generation, of which I am one of the early ones,

is

Post by Ray Murphy

Post by Christine
the one that underwent 'the power of the individual force', first as a
result of the dictatorial forces outside themselves that took control
of/over their lives and which have gradually been swept away as the

creative

Post by Ray Murphy

Post by Christine
expression of individuality within each of us has reared its ugly head,

so

Post by Ray Murphy

Post by Christine
to speak :-). It has brought forth a rather self-centred society in many
respects, in which a 'Blow you, Jack, I'm alright' attitude has become
precedent.
Yet, as I have understood it, Pluto totally destroys a particular way of
life to create something totally new in its place, leaving nothing of the
old way in tact to rebuild upon. This suggests to me that the Pluto in

Leo

Post by Ray Murphy

Post by Christine
generation demand their rights of individual expression, only to find, in
the long run, that individuality is only a 'personal necessity' for some
reason or the other, yet is pretty irrelevant, insignificant and ant-like
when seen within the greater context of, and compared to the natural

forces

Post by Ray Murphy

Post by Christine
outside themselves that appear to regulate life on the planet.

RM: This illusion of children and youth "demanding more rights" only
occurred in some places after WWII when working wives in some
countries got a taste for more freedom and independence after being
forced into the workforce..

It also followed the Pluto is Aries, Taurus, Gemini and Cancer generations,
from which the importance of the individual had generated and grown. Pluto
in Leo made it a conscious act, as a result of an egomaniacal monster or
two.

RM: I contend that it was what I wrote, and would have happened
anyway.

Post by Christine
This was pushed along by technology ---

Post by Ray Murphy
cars, television, record-players and transistor radios.

The women had

Post by Ray Murphy
to support the young ones "rights" in order to keep pushing for more
of their own.

I believe that was already going on at the beginning of the 20th century! In
those days, women were fighting for the equality of being heard (Gemini),
not their individuality (Leo).

RM: Yes, in 1894 women in South Australia were given the right to vote
for the first time in history, just 6 miles down the road from here.

Post by Christine

Post by Ray Murphy
Apparently Pluto didn't work in poor countries though :-))

*In poor countries*, the women did.....and probably still do... all the work
anyway.

RM: I assume you mean all (or most) of the work in the home. This is
why we need to look at the *whole* world when trying to make
astrological patterns fit - instead of taking a narrow view of our
own culture.

Post by Christine
It's unfortunate that your personal *illusion* of the Pluto in Leo
generational impact refers to one element of it only, and that the free will
and private enterprise that evolved from or through it and has gradually
taken over from the family/master/government controlled development of one's
life, has gone unnoticed by you.

RM: There is nothing "unfortunate" occurring at all; and the illusion
I was referring to is not mine; however if you have any enlightening
facts to present - do so.
You've also got the wrong end of the pineapple again by claiming that
I referred to one element only.

Post by Christine

Post by Ray Murphy

Post by Christine
Christine.

Ray

[Ray Murphy]

[RE-SENT by email a/c Newsgroups out of order at this end]
----------

Post by John Roth

Post by Christine

Post by Bruce Ritchings
Hello,
I just did a "synastry" chart on Liz Greene's www.astro.com website,
using today's date, Jan. 5, 2005, and my birthdate, Sept. 4, 1951. To
my surprise, it came up with an aspect I thought was impossible,
namely Pluto Trine Pluto. Don't you have to be at least 80 years old
to get this aspect? Obviously, I'm only 53. According to my natal
chart, Pluto was at 20 degrees 11 minutes of Leo when I was born, and
now supposedly Pluto is at 22 degrees 52 minutes of Sagittarius. Can
anybody tell me if those coordinates give you a true trine?
If so, does anybody care to venture to guess what sort of aspect
Pluto Trine Pluto will turn out to be for me? (tenth house natal Pluto
to second house transitting Pluto). Robert Hand doesn't even have this
aspect listed in his Planets in Transit--presumbly he must have
thought that nobody would live that long, which is what's making me
wonder if there isn't some calculation error here.

Hi Bruce,
At the time 'Planets in Transit' was written in the 70's, Robert Hand
would
have had few clients' and/or personal experiences to get a handle on what
the trine signified because no one had lived long enough to 'consciously'
go
through it and be aware of what it involved.

The criticism of Rob Hand has nothing to do with his
delineation (or lack thereof). It's his blatently incorrect
statement that it only occurs for people in their 80s and
90s.

RM: Yes such a statement would be incorrect if it was made, but Rob
Hand is too careful to make such an error.
He actually said [in his 1976 book] "In this century, this transit has
happened only to people when they are in their eighties and nineties".
He was therefore referring to people born about 80 -100 years earlier
- meaning roughly 1876-1896. This would fit with your figures below.

Post by John Roth
Someone who was born in 1900 would have been
78, but the age goes down rapidly from there. Someone
born in 1910 would have been 71 or 72, someone
born in 1920 would have been 66, and someone born
in 1930 would have been 61. By 1940 it was down to
around 56, approaching the minimum of 53. For someone
born in 2000, it would be back up to around 77.
John Roth

Ray

[John Roth]

Post by Ray Murphy

Post by John Roth

Post by Christine
Hi Bruce,
At the time 'Planets in Transit' was written in the 70's, Robert Hand
would
have had few clients' and/or personal experiences to get a handle on what
the trine signified because no one had lived long enough to
'consciously'
go
through it and be aware of what it involved.

The criticism of Rob Hand has nothing to do with his
delineation (or lack thereof). It's his blatently incorrect
statement that it only occurs for people in their 80s and
90s.

RM: Yes such a statement would be incorrect if it was made, but Rob
Hand is too careful to make such an error.
He actually said [in his 1976 book] "In this century, this transit has
happened only to people when they are in their eighties and nineties".
He was therefore referring to people born about 80 -100 years earlier
- meaning roughly 1876-1896. This would fit with your figures below.

Well, yes. If you read it carefully, it does imply that he hasn't
had the opportunity to observe it because, at the time he
wrote it, only the very elderly experianced it. It's a statement
about his personal experiance, and it's appropriately cautious.

However, it can be very easily misinterpreted, as it has been.
Regardless of how meticulous someone is, it's quite easy to
write a paragraph that can be misinterpreted. If I was editing
it, I would suggest recasting it to say something like: "At the
time of writing I have had no clients with this aspect. The age
at which it occurs varies depending on where Pluto is at in
its orbit. As Pluto moves faster that age decreases. Currently
it's in the late 70s or so; it will decrease to the middle 50s by
the end of the century. I would suggest interpreting it like
the sextile."

Post by Ray Murphy

Post by John Roth
Someone who was born in 1900 would have been
78, but the age goes down rapidly from there. Someone
born in 1910 would have been 71 or 72, someone
born in 1920 would have been 66, and someone born
in 1930 would have been 61. By 1940 it was down to
around 56, approaching the minimum of 53. For someone
born in 2000, it would be back up to around 77.
John Roth

Ray

[Keera Ann Fox]

Post by Bruce Ritchings
Hello,
I just did a "synastry" chart on Liz Greene's www.astro.com website,
using today's date, Jan. 5, 2005, and my birthdate, Sept. 4, 1951. To
my surprise, it came up with an aspect I thought was impossible,
namely Pluto Trine Pluto. Don't you have to be at least 80 years old
to get this aspect?

Pluto stays _on average_ in each sign for about 21 years. But because
Pluto's orbit is very elliptical, it doesn't move at a steady rate
through each sign. If my now 94 y.o. grandma lives long enough, she'll
experience Pluto _opp_ Pluto! (She has it at 27 Gemini natally.)

[Chris Mitchell]

Post by Keera Ann Fox

Post by Bruce Ritchings
Hello,
I just did a "synastry" chart on Liz Greene's www.astro.com website,
using today's date, Jan. 5, 2005, and my birthdate, Sept. 4, 1951. To
my surprise, it came up with an aspect I thought was impossible,
namely Pluto Trine Pluto. Don't you have to be at least 80 years old
to get this aspect?

Pluto stays _on average_ in each sign for about 21 years. But because
Pluto's orbit is very elliptical, it doesn't move at a steady rate
through each sign. If my now 94 y.o. grandma lives long enough, she'll
experience Pluto _opp_ Pluto! (She has it at 27 Gemini natally.)

Indeed - and if I live to the age of 86, I'll experience Pluto
OPPOSITE natal Pluto!

[Keera Ann Fox]

Post by Chris Mitchell
Indeed - and if I live to the age of 86, I'll experience Pluto
OPPOSITE natal Pluto!

Fascinating! A Saturn return, a Uranus return and Pluto opp Pluto all in
a row! Old age just won't be the same. :-)