Discussion:
Pre-natal eclipses - what do YOU think?
(too old to reply)
c***@lightlink.com
2004-12-13 13:06:11 UTC
Permalink
ALL ABOUT ECLIPSES
by Carol Willis

(C) Copyright by Carol Willis, 2004. All rights reserved.


TABLE OF CONTENTS
- Introduction
- Solar Eclipses
including transiting solar eclipses
- Lunar Eclipses
including transiting lunar eclipses
- Pre-Natal Eclipses
- Pre-natal Eclipses as interpreted by McCoy and Spiller
- Willis Commentary on McCoy and Spiller
- Summary of Willis interpretation of pre-natal eclipses
- Pre-Natal Solar Eclipse (PNSE)
- Pre-Natal Lunar Eclipse (PNLE)
- Post-Natal Eclipses


Introduction

This article will set forth my perspective on eclipses, their
uses and interpretation. Transiting, pre-natal, and post-natal
eclipses will be covered.

Additionally, my views on pre-natal solar and lunar eclipses will
be compared and contrasted with those of Karen McCoy and Jan
Spiller, authors of the popular book Spiritual Astrology.


Solar Eclipses

A solar eclipse occurs on a new moon, when the Moon is between
the earth and the Sun, thus obscuring or eclipsing the Sun from
our vantage point of standing on earth.

My interpretation for the solar eclipse generally is esoteric or
involving deeper meaning for the soul as it stands in relation to
its environment. The Sun is the center of our solar system, and
is thus a stable orientation point in our solar system. The Sun
symbolizes a principle of intelligibility, as all things revolve
around and make sense in terms of the Sun in our solar system.
The Sun is a symbol of normal rationality and order, Apollonian
ideals from ancient Greece. Therefore when the Sun is obscured
or eclipsed by the Moon, the normal order of things may be less
available, to some degree superceded or eclipsed for a while by
the instinctual, emotional, and more chaotic energies of the
Moon. The lunar energies and emotional excitement run high for
several days surrounding a solar eclipse, especially in the week
previous to the exact eclipse. Anything goes, and probably will.
It's no wonder then that the ancients considered solar eclipses
to be "fateful," usually in a destructive way.

I find a transiting solar eclipse to be generally destructive to
some degree, sometimes severely. I largely note the HOUSE into
which it falls in a natal chart, noting also other planetary
factors closely conjunct it, and perhaps other hard aspects to
the natal chart. I do not use the sign of a transiting solar
eclipse placed into the natal chart.

The window of time for a transiting solar eclipse is 1 week
before the eclipse, the day of the eclipse itself, and the week
following, then dropping off in intensity for the next 6 months
until the time of the next solar eclipse. Long term consequences
may continue for years following that, again highlighting the
"fateful" aspect of solar eclipses.

Note: solar eclipses are dangerous to view with the naked eye.



Lunar Eclipses

A lunar eclipse occurs on a full moon, when the earth is between
the Sun and the Moon. If you are standing on earth and viewing
the Moon, the Sun will be behind you. What you see in a lunar
eclipse is the shadow of earth covering the Moon.

Note: because you're not looking toward the Sun, viewing a lunar
eclipse is benign on the eyes.

The difference in effect on physical eyes - dangerous in a
solar eclipse, benign in a lunar eclipse - reflects our larger
perception and experience around a transiting eclipse.


I call the transiting lunar eclipses "the dreaming eclipses," as
we are likely to be caught up in a heightened state of dreaming
awareness and altered states of consciousness. The esoteric
aspect of the lunar eclipses involves the dreaming nature of
consciousness, the spiritual-psychic state of aboriginal
"dreamtime." The general time around a lunar eclipse can be a
time of soaring spirits, heart's desires unfurled, and wishes
fulfilled. It's important to allow time for uninterrupted
dreaming and reverie around the time of the lunar eclipse. For
some persons, this may mean more solitude, more unscheduled time,
or going to bed earlier, to create the context for more dreaming
consciousness. This is my general interpretation for everyone on
the transiting lunar eclipse. I do not put transiting lunar
eclipses into the natal chart nor further interpret them
individually. I believe in allowing the general enhanced
dreaming nature of these times to unfold in bliss without
intervention.



Pre-Natal Eclipses as Interpreted by McCoy and Spiller

In Part II of their book Spiritual Astrology, Karen McCoy and
Jan Spiller set forth their approach to the pre-natal eclipses as
"key to life path and destiny." McCoy orients the reader to
pre-natal eclipses as follows:

"The solar eclipse represents the aspects of the collective
higher consciousness that you have to offer your fellow beings.
The sign and house of the eclipse will tell you in what area of
your life and in what mode of expression the abilities are most
accessible to you. The lunar eclipse pattern will show you what
is needed to continue the growth of your soul, and the house and
sign will show how and where these lessons can best be acquired.
It is at these points that growth is stimulated and character is
built. The level of awareness the soul has when entering this
plane will determine whether it will seek the lessons of its
lunar eclipse with compassion and understanding or with
resentment." (pg. 164)

Spiller and McCoy elaborate on the pre-natal solar eclipse:

"The sign of the solar eclipse shows a universal destiny. ...The
solar eclipse energy is what you are here to clarify for the
collective whole. Where your solar eclipse is concerned, you must
share as you have promised on your covenant with the universe.
Your only choice lies in whether to share your gift in a positive
or negative way. You can go about your life willingly sharing
this gift with your fellow beings, or you can teach the lesson by
having such negative traits that those around you learn what not
to do from your behavior and personality. If you do choose to
teach these lessons in a negative manner, you are creating an
imbalance within your life that causes your own lessons to be
learned with more difficulty than necessary. You promised that
you would share the energy of the solar eclipse in order to earn
the right to come onto this plane and learn the lessons
represented by your lunar eclipse." (pg. 168)

"The sign of your [pre-natal] solar eclipse determines what your
responsibility is to the collective whole, the energy you have
promised to share with your fellow beings. It's a gift that the
universe gave you so you could teach others..." (pg. 169)

Regarding the pre-natal lunar eclipse, Spiller and McCoy write:

"The lunar eclipse is what you need for your own growth pattern:
what you have come to learn, where you hurt, where you need
completion. And as you master these lesson,s the entire planet
learns them, and part of the universal balance is attained....The
sign of your lunar eclipse indicates those qualities you need to
integrate for personal balance, the lessons you have chosen to
learn in this lifetime." (pg. 168-169)

Spiller further note 3 levels of expression in both pre-natal
eclipses:

"Unconscious expression...bucking the tides of growth and
choosing not to integrate your lessons...swimming
upstream...taking yourself out of the natural flow.

"Conscious expression...approach life consciously, listen to your
inner voice and follow the flow of life, seeking your lessons in
a gentler way. By being aware and conscious, growth comes more
easily.

"Transpersonal expression...when you have elected to transcend
the ego and function in a way that serves the highest good.
Personal growth and maturity lead to a sense of greater ease in
life." (pg. 169-170)




Willis Commentary on McCoy and Spiller

Spiller and McCoy's claims regarding the pre-natal solar and
lunar eclipses are some of the largest and most inclusive claims
that can be made in the field of astrology. Some would consider
the claims simply too grandiose to be seriously considered on
their own terms. Rather than write the claims off a priori, I'll
say that the claims made by Spiller and McCoy deserve close
examination and experimentation to see whether all, some, or none
of the claims can be reasonably and practically embraced.

We need to look not only at whether the claims are true at least
some of the time, but also at whether astrologers are comfortable
predicting on the basis of these claims, and further still
whether astrologers want to use any or all of Spiller and McCoy's
specific interpretations. However, since I can only speak for
myself, I will narrow the scope of predictive comfort level down
to one, and let others make their own examinations as per usual.

After reviewing the Spiller and McCoy text, including solar and
lunar eclipse delineations through the signs, and examining a
number of natal charts of persons I know well, I draw the
following conclusions:



- The focus on teaching (PNSE) and learning (PNLE) is a tidy
theory and psychologically compelling for students of life,
however I find it simplistic in that the theory will not always
be suited to the interpretive task and individual at hand. It
may be suited to some individuals, however, and could be pressed
into service if applicable. I would not want to use that theory
as a formula, even if the theory were further qualified
intuitively. There is no substitute for a direct look at the
individual and seeing what does, and does not, apply to him.
Later below I will propose a radically different view of the
PNLE.


- I agree with Spiller and McCoy somewhat on interpreting the
pre-natal SOLAR eclipse (PNSE), though my claim is not as strong
as theirs. I would say, rather, that the PNSE by sign and house
will OFTEN GIVE AN IMPORTANT CLUE REGARDING A PERSON'S LIFE
PURPOSE, which in turn needs to be considered in the larger
context of the life and natal chart. My preference in
interpretation would be for simplicity of focus or theme, a
"sounding of the note" that will naturally unfold in its own
form and detail as the person goes through life.


- The esoterics underlying my above interpretation of the PNSE
are that the transiting solar eclipse is exciting but also
threatening to people at large as it briefly obscures normal
reason and order to some degree. Then along come the children of
that time, and they will be the HEROES of their day. Children
are heroes as soon as they're born, as their very presence in the
world changes things. Their holy innocence and vulnerability
change things. Their spiritual/soul presence changes things, not
only in the family but also in the world at large. As these
children grow into adulthood, more of their purpose begins to
manifest into form, shows itself in a myriad of ways, and
continues to unfold and show itself over the course of a
lifetime. This is one of the ways that God/Spirit intervenes and
reconciles itself with the world, in terms of the presence,
consciousness, and purposefulness (dharma) of each new wave of
children as they go though life offering their special
contributions.


- While there can be downside risk or undesirable expression of a
PNSE, I would rather just "sound the note" and orient a person's
attention to the positive. An astrological consultation cannot
do everything, and unless there is a specific and obvious life
problem to address, or I am otherwise prompted to comment, I
depend on a person's desire to study and apply himself in the
areas of spirituality, religion, and/or ethics in order to
obviate or prevent undesirable expression of the PNSE.


- I did not care for Spiller and McCoy's interpretations of the
pre-natal solar eclipses by sign as written in the book. I did
not relate well to the sign interpretation given for my own PNSE,
nor that of other charts I looked at. Again I would prefer more
focus and simplicity, which are very powerful if the right note
is sounded. I want to put my own interpretations on a PNSE, and
would apply some intuition to make it applicable to the
individual, as in any delineation.


- In reading through Spiller and McCoy's pre-natal LUNAR eclipse
(PNLE) interpretations, my sense was that there was nothing
specific to the individual in those sign interpretations.
Rather, my sense was that EVERYONE needs ALL of the constructive
qualities of ALL 12 signs as written in Spiller and McCoy's lunar
eclipses text, IN ORDER TO BE CONSIDERED A VIABLE ADULT. By
"viable adult," I refer to the kind of person you'd be willing to
hire, marry, would want for a friend, teacher, boss, mentor,
neighbor, consultant, or that you'd prefer to have in your life
for any purpose. And if a person didn't have these qualities,
then they would be considered unreliable, even dangerous, not
someone you'd especially care to have close to you or would see
as a possibility for your future. No qualities cited in Spiller
and McCoy's PNLE signs text can really be left out of a basic
development. I see elements from all 12 signs that even the
brightest and most caring individual may be challenged to learn
in life. So to narrow the focus to one sign (and house?) and
say this is the learning to take place is simplistic and a
misdirector of attention, when the learning and development focus
needs to be on a much broader building in of virtues and
life-skills, represented in all of the signs taken together, for
everyone.


- I hereby propose an alternate interpretation for the PNLE,
somewhat along the lines of transiting lunar eclipses, which
occur at a full moon, and consistent with some of the most
positive qualities represented by the Moon. In interpreting the
PNLE, I want to acknowledge and validate a person's dreaming
nature generally, which is related to the spiritual impulses and
loves that seem to rise up from the heart. I want to acknowledge
and validate something of a person's essential DREAM, DESIRE, and
FULFILLMENT in the area indicated by the sign and house of the
PNLE, simply and intuitively interpreted. I see these as a
reflection of "the dreaming aspect of God's nature", and soul's
desire for experience, which will have its fulfillment in due
time, especially at the level of essence and experience, and
sometimes in worldly form as well. The seed of the fulfillment
is already there in the person's own true nature - what he wants,
values, and loves at an essence level is already an aspect of
himself, so he will tend to embody and express these qualities in
his life. Thus he creates his world. The PNLE carries the
general dreaming nature of a lunar eclipse(s), which occured
while the child was still in the womb, so in some ways I see a
PNLE as one initiating energy of the CONTINUOUS AND CREATIVE
DREAM that weaves its way throughout life. This is not only an
esoteric interpretation of the PNLE that resonates deeply, but
dream-desire-fulfillment is also the most practical
interpretation of the PNLE that I have considered to date.


Summary of Willis Interpretation of Pre-Natal Eclipses

Pre-natal Solar Eclipse (PNSE): may give an important clue to
life purpose, needs to be interpreted intuitively in the larger
context of the individual life and the natal chart.

Pre-natal Lunar Eclipse (PNLE): dream, desire for life
experience, and fulfillment, especially at the level of essence,
sometimes also in form. Again, a need to interpret intuitively
for the individual.

I would caution against too much detail in the interpretation of
pre-natal eclipses. The appropriate essence can be simply stated.
Sound the note, and let life unfold naturally from there.


Post-natal Eclipses

If an eclipse follows one's birthdate within a week or so, the
birth took place within in the eclipse window, within in the
building energies catapulting toward the eclipse. Therefore,
such a post-natal eclipse can be noted and interpreted as well,
and may be more meaningful than the pre-natal eclipses that took
place some 6 months prior to birth, or equally meaningful to that
person.



Carol Willis, MA
***@lightlink.com
December 10, 2004

[end article]
------------------------------------------------------------
s***@yahoo.com
2004-12-13 16:35:52 UTC
Permalink
Carol,

That is really quite an excellent paper and very scholarly as well. I
applaud you!

I know you are a well known, excellent writer and astrologer and this
piece is indicative of your talent.

I have only this year gotten in to PNEs and I am finding them
fascinating. To me they are especially fascinating in regards to
synastry with others.

I put the PNSE and then the PNLE on the inner wheel and put the
person's chart on the outer wheel. It has been a real revelation on how
the conjuctions (especially), oppositions, square and trines (using
tight orbs) describe the relationship.

I have begun using them as a template for who I will meet for coffee
and those whom I do not meet by this method. I am trying to find a man
to "fit" for friendship and a full-bodied relationship since my son
went off to college. The empty nest syndrome -- it is lonely alone
after all the years raising him and having employees in my home all the
time.

I have one man I adore, but he is not cooperating thus far, so I use
the PNEs before I interview the new ones. LOL

The man I am interested in has his natal IC at 4 Aqu which is my PNSE
and his natal Sun and Vertex falls at the IC of my PNSE. Problem is his
Venus is conjunct my Uranus but trine my PNSE and his Moon is conjunct
my Pluto of my PNSE and natal synsatry as well.

So he is very unpredictable (Ven+Urnaus), but the connection has lasted
12 years, and it is evolving with Pluto on the IC of our composite
right now.

In his PNSE, my Juno falls on the IC and Vesta on the Dsc. Then I swap
them. There is more I am leaving out. I am just glancing at the most
powerful contacts like angles and tight conjunctions for this
discussion.

His PNLE Mars is exact on my Dsc and the Chiron conj Venus is in my 7th
opp my Jupiter.

His PNSE at 6 Aries makes a T-square to my Cancer Bundle and Moon conj
Neptune and his Cupido (conjunct my Moon square my Venus).

Anyway -- I have tried this with different men I have dated and the
PNES and PNLEs are amazing in their very simple keyword descriptions of
what the relationship revolves around. The asteroids seem especially
acute in these for some reason.

What I have also noticed in years where there are important events or
relationships, the people's progressed planets and angles will trigger
into the eclipse charts as well.

Probably the most interesting thing is that our composite Asc/Dsc is
exact on his PNLE point.

Here is what I found when I used the PNEs to determine keynotes of this
relationship using the composite.

http://gxs.home.texas.net/Astro/Prenatal/Comp_PN_E.html
Do you think it is interesting?

Thanks for the great article, Carol!
s***@yahoo.com
2004-12-13 16:46:10 UTC
Permalink
Very sorry for the double post -- Google said it Failed the first
time-- and to Try again, so I did and it went through twice. :(
s***@yahoo.com
2004-12-13 16:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Carol,

That is really quite an excellent paper and very scholarly as well. I
applaud you!

I know you are a well known, excellent writer and astrologer and this
piece is indicative of your talent.

I have only this year gotten in to PNEs and I am finding them
fascinating. To me they are especially fascinating in regards to
synastry with others.

I put the PNSE and then the PNLE on the inner wheel and put the
person's chart on the outer wheel. It has been a real revelation on how
the conjuctions (especially), oppositions, square and trines (using
tight orbs) describe the relationship.

I have begun using them as a template for who I will meet for coffee
and those whom I do not meet by this method. I am trying to find a man
to "fit" for friendship and a full-bodied relationship since my son
went off to college. The empty nest syndrome -- it is lonely alone
after all the years raising him and having employees in my home all the
time.

I have one man I adore, but he is not cooperating thus far, so I use
the PNEs before I interview the new ones. LOL

The man I am interested in has his natal IC at 4 Aqu which is my PNSE
and his natal Sun and Vertex falls at the IC of my PNSE. Problem is his
Venus is conjunct my Uranus but trine my PNSE and his Moon is conjunct
my Pluto of my PNSE and natal synsatry as well.

So he is very unpredictable (Ven+Urnaus), but the connection has lasted
12 years, and it is evolving with Pluto on the IC of our composite
right now.

In his PNSE, my Juno falls on the IC and Vesta on the Dsc. Then I swap
them. There is more I am leaving out. I am just glancing at the most
powerful contacts like angles and tight conjunctions for this
discussion.

His PNLE Mars is exact on my Dsc and the Chiron conj Venus is in my 7th
opp my Jupiter.

His PNSE at 6 Aries makes a T-square to my Cancer Bundle and Moon conj
Neptune and his Cupido (conjunct my Moon square my Venus).

Anyway -- I have tried this with different men I have dated and the
PNES and PNLEs are amazing in their very simple keyword descriptions of
what the relationship revolves around. The asteroids seem especially
acute in these for some reason.

What I have also noticed in years where there are important events or
relationships, the people's progressed planets and angles will trigger
into the eclipse charts as well.

Probably the most interesting thing is that our composite Asc/Dsc is
exact on his PNLE point.

Here is what I found when I used the PNEs to determine keynotes of this
relationship using the composite.

http://gxs.home.texas.net/Astro/Prenatal/Comp_PN_E.html
Do you think it is interesting?

Thanks for the great article, Carol!
s***@yahoo.com
2004-12-13 16:56:29 UTC
Permalink
I forgot to say -- his are the 1960 PNEs -- mine are the "mystery"
PNEs.
AugustsBks
2004-12-14 14:13:31 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Pre-natal eclipses - what do YOU think?
Date: 12/13/2004 5:06 AM Pacific
[Willis quoting McCoy and Spiller:]
"The solar eclipse represents the aspects of the collective
higher consciousness that you have to offer your fellow beings.
The sign and house of the eclipse will tell you in what area of
your life and in what mode of expression the abilities are most
accessible to you. The lunar eclipse pattern will show you what
is needed to continue the growth of your soul, and the house and
sign will show how and where these lessons can best be acquired.
It is at these points that growth is stimulated and character is
built. The level of awareness the soul has when entering this
plane will determine whether it will seek the lessons of its
lunar eclipse with compassion and understanding or with
resentment."


[Ed:]
As I re-read these comments by the two authors you cite, I am
tugging my chin, pondering if it is possible to formulate such
Universal Astrological Laws about the several kinds of eclipses
and such VERY basic individual qualities such as "aspects of the
collective higher consciousness" that one has to offer to fellow
beings, including "what area of life" and "what mode of
expression" the abilities are most "accessible". I'm honestly
not even sure what that means, I wish the authors had used an
example or two from their databank of sources, that is, examples
in charts of Real People. Otherwise, it sounds too blastedly
hypothetical and possibly speciously generalized.. It just seems
they are biting-off a huge amount of material here, perhaps
taking too much for granted? Where do they GET THIS? Let's see
some examples from nature, ie., some charts! I almost prefer to
see anecdotal examples thrown in so that we can better see what
it is they're really doing!

---------


[quoting Spiller and McCoy on the pre-natal solar eclipse:]

"The sign of the solar eclipse shows a universal destiny. ...The
solar eclipse energy is what you are here to clarify for the
collective whole. "


[Ed:]
This seems, if not actually ridiculous, then perhaps,
far-fetched!

Several dozen million people were born in the days and weeks that
followed solar eclipse while Sun was in.... say... Taurus!
So, are Spiller and McCoy saying T A U R U S shows a UNIVERSAL
DESTINY for these dozen million subsequent--birthday--babies?
And these dozen million of us "are here to CLARIFY FOR THE
COLLECTIVE WHOLE something (what, exactly?) about TAURUS
energy's "UNIVERSAL DESTINY?" Sorry, I just don't get it! Or,
I guess I do get it, but I don't think they can really SAY that,
not for all dozen million births that apply! x------Ed


---------------------


[quoting Spiller and McCoy:]
"Where your solar eclipse is concerned, you must share as you have
promised on your covenant with the universe. Your only choice
lies in whether to share your gift in a positive or negative way.
They evidently visualize that we have all "COVENANTED with the
UNIVERSE" in our "PROMISE" to "SHARE"?"


[Ed:]
Okay. We have no choice in that? Ahhh! But we DO have a choice
as to whether we share our gift through being positive or
negative, it is our choice (at what point is it our choice, and
what makes it our choice to do this in a "good" or "bad" way?
Does it depend on other factors, aspects, etc., in our charts
that have nothing to do with the Eclipses themselves? POSITIVE
or NEGATIVE, and our choice.... Hmmmmm! So it is "our choice"
somehow whether we are teachers or parents, or soldiers or
executioners! I don't like this kind of "heavy trip"!
---------E.

-------------

[quoting Spiller and McCoy:]
"...or you can teach the lesson by having such negative traits that
those around you learn what not to do from your behavior and
personality"


[Ed:]
Yuck, that's awful! Wayne Gacy taught his neighbors a lesson by
killing 25 neighborhood kids & youth, I suppose! "Hey, guys!
This is what NOT to do! Aren't you glad I incarnated on this
planet to teach all of you about that?" A weird concept!
--------Ed


----------------------------

[quoting Spiller and McCoy:]
"You promised that you would share the energy of the solar
eclipse in order to earn the right to come onto this plane and
learn the lessons represented by your lunar eclipse."


[Ed:]
This is too RELIGIOUS for my taste. I certainly don't remember
promising anyone anything during some pre-natal epoch or in some
angelic realm or however they construe a life before birth to
exist.... For all I know, my chart and my "destiny" and family,
etc., were imposed on me by higher forces, and have nothing
whatever to do with any undertaking or obligation or promise of
any kind that I made! If I made such a PROMISE, what good is it
if I can't remember anything about it? ---------Ed



[quoting Spiller and McCoy:]
"The sign of your [pre-natal] solar eclipse determines what your
responsibility is to the collective whole, the energy you have
promised to share with your fellow beings. It's a gift that the
universe gave you so you could teach others..."


[Ed:]
I think this is BALONEY, on a kaiser roll with mayo and mustard,
perhaps, but BALONEY nonetheless!

Twelve million souls "promised'" to share what it is to be a
Scorpio or an Aquarius with all their fellow beings, just by the
COINCIDENCE of what Sign was Eclipsed in the pre-natal epoch.
Sorry, I just don't believe that! I am becoming quite intrigued
to see how you will respond to some of these exotic notions of
theirs! ---------Ed .

-------------------------



[Willis:]
Spiller further note 3 levels of expression in both pre-natal
eclipses:

[quoting Spiller:]
"Unconscious expression...bucking the tides of growth and
choosing not to integrate your lessons...swimming
upstream...taking yourself out of the natural flow.

"Conscious expression...approach life consciously, listen to your
inner voice and follow the flow of life, seeking your lessons in
a gentler way. By being aware and conscious, growth comes more
easily.

"Transpersonal expression...when you have elected to transcend
the ego and function in a way that serves the highest good.
Personal growth and maturity lead to a sense of greater ease in
life." (pg. 169-170)


[Ed:]
Hmmm, perhaps I'm not getting enough of their original ideas,
maybe there is more here than meets the eye, but these 3 "Levels
of Expression" in both pre-natal Solar and Lunar Eclipses, as
formulated above, DON'T HELP ME ONE LITTLE BIT because I cannot
for the life of me tell what it is these 3 levels of expression
are based upon, or HOW one can be recognized from another in the
individual by looking at his or her chart. It seems on the verge
of what may just be ULTRA-MYSTICAL NONSENSE. ---------Ed


-----------------------------

***@lightlink.com writes:
Willis Commentary on McCoy and Spiller

Spiller and McCoy's claims regarding the pre-natal solar and
lunar eclipses are some of the LARGEST AND MOST INCLUSIVE CLAIMS
that can be made in the field of astrology.



[Ed:]
Yes, I absolutely agree with you! They remind me of that little
ultra-mystical Frenchman, what's--his--name, "Dr'" somebody
(though he's not any kind of doctor!) who says EVERYTHING in a
chart depends on the SOUTH LUNAR NODE, and ONLY the South Lunar
Node... he did entire mini-readings over the phone (on the
radio) armed with nothing but an Ephemeris that gave him the
SIGNS of the person's SOUTH LUNAR NODE. McCoy & Spiller remind
me somehow of this kind of over-confident, all-inclusive
claim.......


[Willis:]
Some would consider the claims SIMPLY TOO GRANDIOSE to be
seriously considered on their own terms.


[Ed:]
Bravo! I agree wholeheartedly!


[Willis:]
Rather than write the claims off a priori, I'll say that the
claims made by Spiller and McCoy deserve close examination and
experimentation to see whether all, some, or none of the claims
can be reasonably and practically embraced.


[Ed:]
If you are a Capricorn, but the Solar Eclipse prior to
your birth occurred in Sagittarius, then your mission in life,
so to speak, is to deliver a SAGITTARIAN message to Mankind?
Well, that's fine! But then WHAT THE HECK major importance is it
that you were born a CAPRICORN, if your "life mission" is now to
deliver something of a SAGITTARIAN nature! I don't buy it!


[Willis:]
We need to look not only at whether the claims are true at least
some of the time, but also at whether astrologers are comfortable
predicting on the basis of these claims,



[Ed:]
How can I "predict" on the basis of such claims as we've read
above? Do the Vedic Astrologers use this system? Does ANYONE?
Where did this couple come up with this idea? Is it
idealization about what one's astrology SHOULD be? Is this
being used by anyone on the planet EXCEPT the two of them?

I am still concerned how, if I were giving a reading to someone
like myself, a Gemini with Moon in Leo, Venus and Mercury
conjunct in Cancer; and using the fact that I had a Solar
pre-natal Eclipse in TAURUS and a Lunar Eclipse in SCORPIO,
well! I don't know! It becomes a matter of WHAT's MORE
IMPORTANT, ANYWAY? IMAGINED, IMAGINARY "ASPECTS" caused by
ECLIPSES? Or one's very own, actual, aspects and positions of
planets and luminaries AT BIRTH???? I would say----what
happened at birth! Not imaginary positions and conditions
imposed through somebody's over-active imagination! It's HARD
ENOUGH to DO ASTROLOGY well for a client without trying to tell
a VIRGO person that the heart and soul of their pre-arranged
"deal" with all mankind, is to be more of a LEO type of person
because of a pre-natal eclipse in LEO... s o r r y ! I just
DON'T SEE IT!!


[Willis:]
...and further still whether astrologers want to
use any or all of Spiller and McCoy's specific interpretations.
However, since I can only speak for myself, I will narrow the
scope of predictive comfort level down to one, and let others
make their own examinations as per usual.

After reviewing the Spiller and McCoy text, including solar and
lunar eclipse delineations through the signs, and examining a
NUMBER OF NATAL CHARTS OF PERSONS I KNOW well,


[Ed:]
Very wise! Good way to proceed! Test out what they say by
actual charts you are very familiar with!


[Willis:]
I draw the following conclusions:

- The focus on teaching (PNSE) and learning (PNLE) is a tidy
theory and psychologically compelling for students of life,
however I find it simplistic


[Ed:]
I ALSO FIND IT ENORMOUSLY SIMPLISTIC


[Willis:]
and probably unworkable in "real life", in that the theory will
not always be suited to the interpretive task and individual at
hand.


[Ed:]
That's because individuals are the sum total of dozens of real
planetary positions, by sign, house, and aspect. And these DO
show "a path" into the future, and a process of learning, and bad
things to be gotten rid or before they become destuctive, and
one's talents and good points, as well as bad; Heck! Do we NEED
to add the PNSE and PNLE into this healthy, heady mix---- at all?


[Willis:]
It may be suited to some individuals, however, and could be
pressed into service if applicable.


[Ed:]
This strikes me as somewhat dishonest -- using the Pre Natal
material "IF THE SHOE FITS" and ignoring or downplaying it, if
the particular individual is NOT suited to the idealized message
of the eclipses!


[Willis:]
I would not want to use that theory as a formula, even if the
theory were further qualified intuitively. THERE IS NO
SUBSTITUTE FOR A DIRECT LOOK AT THE INDIVIDUAL and seeing what
does, and does not, apply to him.


[Ed:]
B r a v o ! Clap! Clap! Clap! Clap!


[Willis:]
Later below I will propose a radically different view of the
PNLE.

[Ed:]
There's MORE???


[Willis:]
- I agree with Spiller and McCoy somewhat on interpreting the
pre-natal SOLAR eclipse (PNSE), though my claim is not as strong
as theirs. I would say, rather, that the PNSE by sign and house
will OFTEN GIVE AN IMPORTANT CLUE REGARDING A PERSON'S LIFE
PURPOSE, which in turn needs to be considered in the larger
context of the life and natal chart.



[Ed:]
Ah! There ya go! I like the sound of that, MUCH better than the
way Spiller & McCoy presented it! AN IMPORTANT CLUE REGARDING
LIFE PURPOSE, I can live with that! If the solar eclipse that
happened in my pre-natal epoch occurred in Taurus, I would not
be averse to an astrologer deciding: "A important clue regarding
Edvins' life purpose can be seen in the Taurus Eclipse. WILL he
have enough funds, enough earning potential? Will his Taurean
STUBBORNESS threaten to subvert career and relationships? Will
he dance like Nureyev or sing like Maria Callas because of all
that VENUS energy that Taurus contains?" Yeah! But you know
what? This is such very, very GENERAL sounding stuff, I can't
picture this as applying in my own life in any meaningful,
easy-to-describe, easy-to-fit-into-one's-view-of-one'self or
one's future behavior! i.e., I don't like it!


[Willis:]
My preference in interpretation would be for simplicity of focus
or theme, a "sounding of the note" that will naturally unfold in
its own form and detail as the person goes through life.

[Ed:]
There are about 57 notes that are sounding in just the major
patterns in any birthchart, do we need even more notes to sound?
I dunno!


[Willis:]
- The esoterics underlying my above interpretation of the PNSE
are that the transiting solar eclipse is exciting but also
threatening to people at large as it briefly obscures normal
reason and order to some degree.


[Ed:]
Yes, I agree that Solar Eclipses are, and have always been,
threatening!


[Willis:]
Then along come the children of that time, and they will be the
HEROES of their day. Children are heroes as soon as they're
born, as their very presence in the world changes things.


[Ed:]
Hmmmm! You are striking a note, here. Or, perhaps -- sounding a
GONG is more like it!


[Willis:]
Their holy innocence and vulnerability change things. Their
spiritual/soul presence changes things, not only in the family
but also in the world at large. As these children grow into
adulthood, more of their purpose begins to manifest into form,
shows itself in a myriad of ways, and continues to unfold and
show itself over the course of a lifetime.


[Ed:]
This idea of these young people coming onto the scene as HEROES
is quite an interesting way of looking at things! A cadre of
heroes, perhaps; since they will have friends from similar
birth-dates. It is good to think of the next generation as
being HEROES, I like that. It EMPOERS them, and that is good!
Remember, we have to extract EVERY BIT OF POSITIVE news,
positive, helpful, healing, T R A N S F O R M A T I O N A L
energy from the lives of these youth that we can. Otherwise
they are just "Blech!" like everybody else.


[Willis:]
This is one of the ways that God/Spirit intervenes and
reconciles itself with the world, in terms of the presence,
consciousness, and purposefulness (dharma) of each new wave of
children as they go though life offering their special
contributions.

[Ed:]
Cool! You are affirming some very nice things, here !



[Willis:]
- While there can be downside risk or undesirable expression of a
PNSE, I would rather just "sound the note" and orient a person's
attention to the positive. An astrological consultation cannot
do everything, and unless there is a specific and obvious life
problem to address, or I am otherwise prompted to comment, I
depend on a person's desire to study and apply himself in the
areas of spirituality, religion, and/or ethics in order to
obviate or prevent undesirable expression of the PNSE.


[Ed:]
That would make for a very spiritual reading! If that's what the
person wants or you or they feel they NEED, "go for it!" There
is, however, such as thing as a "SUPER--SPIRITUALIZED" reading,
which moves in Empyrean regions but may not ultimately be of the
greatest use to the person in the true landscape of their life
on earth at-this-moment-of-time which brought them to the
astrologer in the first place! I guess i mean---- I think it
depends on whether the client is seeking down-to-earth
affirmations, connections, prognoses, OR, whether they WANT the
spiritual, religious, ethical approach which takes them on a
much higher level of contact with the Astrologer/Reader!


[Willis:]
- I did not care for Spiller and McCoy's interpretations of the
pre-natal solar eclipses by sign as written in the book. I did
not relate well to the sign interpretation given for my own PNSE,
nor that of other charts I looked at. Again I would prefer more
focus and simplicity, which are very powerful if the right note
is sounded. I want to put my own interpretations on a PNSE, and
would apply some intuition to make it applicable to the
individual, as in any delineation.


[Ed:]
This reminds me... I used to LOVE Frances Sakoian and Louis B.
Acker's "The Astrological Aspects" I ate & slept that book, so
to speak! I used it wherever I could in performing or
writing-up readings. After a certain amount of time, several
years, certainly, I began to feel quite a bit of
uncomfortableness with some of the interpretations of planetary
positions and aspects. They just were NOT as sound, not as
fully-developed, as I would like them to have been. I find this
EVEN MORE TO BE THE CASE in Sakoian & Acker's book of TRANSITS,
because they commited a most grievous, stupid error: They
equated, say, Venus' transit over Saturn with Saturn's transit
over Venus, and every other such pairing. WHat differentiated
Moon conj. Mars from Mars conj Moon? Mainly the LENGTH of TIME
during which the aspect was in effect, and that the transit by
MARS would not be as ephemeral and possibly peaceful and quiet
like the Moon-trans-Mars was. WELL, ANYWAY, what I meant to
say, is.... YES, the astrologer needs to apply (as you say
above) "some intuition to make it applicable to the individual.."


[Willis:]
- In reading through Spiller and McCoy's pre-natal LUNAR eclipse
(PNLE) interpretations, my sense was that there was nothing
specific to the individual in those sign interpretations.
Rather, my sense was that EVERYONE needs ALL of the constructive
qualities of ALL 12 signs as written in Spiller and McCoy's lunar
eclipses text, IN ORDER TO BE CONSIDERED A VIABLE ADULT. By
"viable adult," I refer to the kind of person you'd be willing to
hire, marry, would want for a friend, teacher, boss, mentor,
neighbor, consultant, or that you'd prefer to have in your life
for any purpose. And if a person didn't have these qualities,
then they would be considered unreliable, even dangerous, not
someone you'd especially care to have close to you or would see
as a possibility for your future. No qualities cited in Spiller
and McCoy's PNLE signs text can really be left out of a basic
development.


[Ed:]
WOW!! Heavy duty statement you're making, here! This is blowing
away Spiller & McCoy, you know! But if you swallow Spiller &
McCoy, you have to swallow the way the Lunar Eclipse effects the
12 Signs.... so, if you don't wish to do that... the only
thing one can really do is: E J E C T SPILLER & MCCOY's
DEFINITIONS!!


[Willis:]
I see elements from all 12 signs that even the
brightest and most caring individual may be challenged to learn
in life. So to narrow the focus to one sign (and house?) and
say this is the learning to take place is simplistic and a
misdirector of attention,


[Ed:]
Hey, Carol! D'ya suppose Spiller & McCoy are very heavy on
Dharma and Karma and take the general "Eastern" view that we may
be coming "back here" dozens and dozens of times, in veritable
REBIRTHS of the Buddhist/Hinduist scale? And so, YES, we can be
confronted with the challenges of a PNLE in Aries in one
lifetime, and a PNLE in Leo in the next lifetime, and then...
and then... and then... UNTIL WE'VE "GOT IT RIGHT" whereupon
we can transcend this large landmass called Earth and go live in
some other more Nirvanic dimension!


[Willis:
... when the learning and development focus
needs to be on a much broader building in of virtues and
life-skills, represented in all of the signs taken together, for
everyone.



[Ed:]
That's no fun! That would mean----someone has to type-up ALL of
Spiller & McCoy's dictums and give it to EVERYONE, and say: "You
want to be successful in this lifetime here on earth? Then
MEMORIZE THIS!!! And USE IT!! " and it would have all the
material of their PNLE research!


[Willis:]
- I hereby propose an alternate interpretation for the PNLE,
somewhat along the lines of transiting lunar eclipses, which
occur at a full moon, and consistent with some of the most
positive qualities represented by the Moon. In interpreting the
PNLE, I want to acknowledge and validate a person's dreaming
nature generally, which is related to the spiritual impulses and
loves that seem to rise up from the heart.


[Ed:]
Ooooh! This is nice! I'm responding to your words, here!


[Willis:]
I want to acknowledge and validate something of a person's
essential DREAM, DESIRE, and FULFILLMENT in the area indicated by
the sign and house of the PNLE, simply and intuitively
interpreted. I see these as a reflection of "the dreaming aspect
of God's nature", and soul's desire for experience, which will
have its fulfillment in due time, especially at the level of
essence and experience, and sometimes in worldly form as well.


[Ed:]
Now, this "Dreaming Aspect of God's Nature", is this your own
interpretation of Moon and Moon'e Eclipses? This is quite
out-of-keeping with what Spiller & McCoy said, no?


[Willis:]
The seed of the fulfillment is already there in the person's own
true nature - what he wants, values, and loves at an essence
level is already an aspect of himself, so he will tend to embody
and express these qualities in his life. Thus he creates his
world.


[Ed:]
Okay. WHERE is this SEEN, however, in the chart? Is it the
"totality" of the various elements and structures and aspects of
one's chart?


[Willis:]
The PNLE carries the
general dreaming nature of a lunar eclipse(s), which occured
while the child was still in the womb, so in some ways I see a
PNLE as one initiating energy of the CONTINUOUS AND CREATIVE
DREAM that weaves its way throughout life. This is not only an
esoteric interpretation of the PNLE that resonates deeply, but
dream-desire-fulfillment is also the most practical
interpretation of the PNLE that I have considered to date.


[Ed:]
Yeah, I can go with that idea! It "Feels" better than what I've
seen of the way they've envisioned the PNLE's.


[Willis:]
Summary of Willis Interpretation of Pre-Natal Eclipses

Pre-natal Solar Eclipse (PNSE): may give an important clue to
life purpose, needs to be interpreted intuitively in the larger
context of the individual life and the natal chart.


[Ed:]
Who gets to interpret it intuitively? The native (subject?)
Or the astrologer?


[Willis:]
Pre-natal Lunar Eclipse (PNLE): dream, desire for life
experience, and fulfillment, especially at the level of essence,
sometimes also in form. Again, a need to interpret intuitively
for the individual.

I would caution against too much detail in the interpretation of
pre-natal eclipses. The appropriate essence can be simply stated.
Sound the note, and let life unfold naturally from there.


[Ed:]
Yes, SOUND THE NOTE because there's not much more than a single
note that can sound. The rest of the chart is moe like a sonata
or symphony. The PNEclipse is not nearly so complex or
energetic. One note, and perhaps sounded rather weakly!


[Willis:]
Post-natal Eclipses

If an eclipse follows one's birthdate within a week or so, the
birth took place within in the eclipse window, within in the
building energies catapulting toward the eclipse. Therefore,
such a post-natal eclipse can be noted and interpreted as well,
and may be more meaningful than the pre-natal eclipses that took
place some 6 months prior to birth, or equally meaningful to that
person.

Carol Willis, MA
***@lightlink.com
December 10, 2004



[Ed:]
YES, most certainly it would have such a rich importance since
the child is now born into this world and surely vulnerable /
ready to receive the energy of the post-natal eclipse!

Good Stuff ! I really got into this! I will have to look at my
own collection of charts to see if the pre natal or post natal
Solar or Lunar eclipses really do give a clue about life's
purpose, plan, education of the 'soul', etc. or whether they may
even give a glimpse at more down-to-earth events / situations
that might be occuring then, or in the future, of that person. I
do remember noticing that pre-natal eclipses worked quite well if
you used the days as years, so that an eclipse occurring, say, 10
days before the child's birth would indicate MAJOR FAMILY CHANGE
10 years prior to the child's birth, and this would travel back
to EITHER the mother or the father, Solar = father, Lunar =
mother, you see? Something else to be tested out someday!
------Ed

Ed Augusts
Dec 13, 2004
CFA
2004-12-14 23:11:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by AugustsBks
[quoting Spiller and McCoy:]
"...or you can teach the lesson by having such negative traits that
those around you learn what not to do from your behavior and
personality"
[Ed:]
Yuck, that's awful! Wayne Gacy taught his neighbors a lesson by
killing 25 neighborhood kids & youth, I suppose! "Hey, guys!
This is what NOT to do! Aren't you glad I incarnated on this
planet to teach all of you about that?" A weird concept!
--------Ed
Not at all. I'd guess a significant part of the time people learn
appropriate behavior by seeing what not to do. Results are your guru.
Post by AugustsBks
[quoting Spiller and McCoy:]
"You promised that you would share the energy of the solar
eclipse in order to earn the right to come onto this plane and
learn the lessons represented by your lunar eclipse."
[Ed:]
This is too RELIGIOUS for my taste. I certainly don't remember
promising anyone anything during some pre-natal epoch or in some
angelic realm or however they construe a life before birth to
exist.... For all I know, my chart and my "destiny" and family,
etc., were imposed on me by higher forces, and have nothing
whatever to do with any undertaking or obligation or promise of
any kind that I made! If I made such a PROMISE, what good is it
if I can't remember anything about it? ---------Ed
It doesn't require memory. Just notice the prominent themes and
patterns in your life. Those are the lessons.
Post by AugustsBks
[quoting Spiller and McCoy:]
"The sign of your [pre-natal] solar eclipse determines what your
responsibility is to the collective whole, the energy you have
promised to share with your fellow beings. It's a gift that the
universe gave you so you could teach others..."
[Ed:]
I think this is BALONEY, on a kaiser roll with mayo and mustard,
perhaps, but BALONEY nonetheless!
Twelve million souls "promised'" to share what it is to be a
Scorpio or an Aquarius with all their fellow beings, just by the
COINCIDENCE of what Sign was Eclipsed in the pre-natal epoch.
Sorry, I just don't believe that! I am becoming quite intrigued
to see how you will respond to some of these exotic notions of
theirs! ---------Ed .
If pre-natal eclipses work at all, then what's so exotic about similar
signs sharing similar 'responsibilities'? This isn't any different
than similar Sun signs sharing common perspectives on life.
Post by AugustsBks
[Willis:]
Spiller further note 3 levels of expression in both pre-natal
[quoting Spiller:]
"Unconscious expression...bucking the tides of growth and
choosing not to integrate your lessons...swimming
upstream...taking yourself out of the natural flow.
"Conscious expression...approach life consciously, listen to your
inner voice and follow the flow of life, seeking your lessons in
a gentler way. By being aware and conscious, growth comes more
easily.
"Transpersonal expression...when you have elected to transcend
the ego and function in a way that serves the highest good.
Personal growth and maturity lead to a sense of greater ease in
life." (pg. 169-170)
[Ed:]
Hmmm, perhaps I'm not getting enough of their original ideas,
maybe there is more here than meets the eye, but these 3 "Levels
of Expression" in both pre-natal Solar and Lunar Eclipses, as
formulated above, DON'T HELP ME ONE LITTLE BIT because I cannot
for the life of me tell what it is these 3 levels of expression
are based upon, or HOW one can be recognized from another in the
individual by looking at his or her chart. It seems on the verge
of what may just be ULTRA-MYSTICAL NONSENSE. ---------Ed
Looks like they're based on at least the sign of the eclipse.
Post by AugustsBks
[Ed:]
If you are a Capricorn, but the Solar Eclipse prior to
your birth occurred in Sagittarius, then your mission in life,
so to speak, is to deliver a SAGITTARIAN message to Mankind?
Well, that's fine! But then WHAT THE HECK major importance is it
that you were born a CAPRICORN, if your "life mission" is now to
deliver something of a SAGITTARIAN nature! I don't buy it!
Doesn't sound too different than having a North Node in a different
sign than the Sun... One is about style, one is about content.
Post by AugustsBks
[Willis:]
We need to look not only at whether the claims are true at least
some of the time, but also at whether astrologers are comfortable
predicting on the basis of these claims,
[Ed:]
How can I "predict" on the basis of such claims as we've read
above? Do the Vedic Astrologers use this system? Does ANYONE?
Where did this couple come up with this idea? Is it
idealization about what one's astrology SHOULD be? Is this
being used by anyone on the planet EXCEPT the two of them?
I am still concerned how, if I were giving a reading to someone
like myself, a Gemini with Moon in Leo, Venus and Mercury
conjunct in Cancer; and using the fact that I had a Solar
pre-natal Eclipse in TAURUS and a Lunar Eclipse in SCORPIO,
well! I don't know! It becomes a matter of WHAT's MORE
IMPORTANT, ANYWAY? IMAGINED, IMAGINARY "ASPECTS" caused by
ECLIPSES? Or one's very own, actual, aspects and positions of
planets and luminaries AT BIRTH???? I would say----what
happened at birth! Not imaginary positions and conditions
imposed through somebody's over-active imagination! It's HARD
ENOUGH to DO ASTROLOGY well for a client without trying to tell
a VIRGO person that the heart and soul of their pre-arranged
"deal" with all mankind, is to be more of a LEO type of person
because of a pre-natal eclipse in LEO... s o r r y ! I just
DON'T SEE IT!!
Have you dealt with the North Node/Sun thing? If so, how did you
explain it?

The rest of this is a similar kind of puzzle, imo... Part of it is
what the symbols suggest, part of it is what the person is actually
working with. Not everyone gets down to the North Node level of their
chart, for instance, if they spend the better part of their days
getting enough food to eat.

Ken
--
c•f•a a•t a•l•t d•o•t n•e•t
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