Libra Rising

[A B]

Has anybody here any opinions on how to interpret a Libra ascendant? It
rarely seems to have the meaning you'd assume it would have. I've just been
looking at J. B. Priestley's chart, for instance. I don't think anyone
would describe him as appearing terribly refined, charming, or
unconfrontational; but he's got Libra rising. He has Saturn and Uranus in
the 1st House, but still, what exactly is the Ascending sign itself doing in
his case? I've noticed this in other charts, too, although I can't think of
any off-hand. The most notorious example, of course, is Adolf Hitler.

Personally, I think there's a more confrontational side to Libra than is
generally acknowledged. There was Patrick Bronte's chart, for instance. He
had Mars in Libra, and I couldn't relate it to anything except crusading
against perceived injustice - which makes symbolic sense, but isn't a
reading I've ever come across for Mars in Libra. And there's the exaltation
of Saturn in Libra, which is generally explained in terms of justice and
discrimination. The 7th is "the house of open enemies". But whenever any
astrology book tries to describe Libra in its own right, we're back to
refinement, indecision, sociability, music and fancy clothes.

Having said all that, the standard version of Libra still seems to fit much
worse as an ascendant than anywhere else. I wonder why?

[Hannelore Goos]

Hello,

Post by A B
Has anybody here any opinions on how to interpret a Libra ascendant? It
rarely seems to have the meaning you'd assume it would have. I've just been
looking at J. B. Priestley's chart, for instance. I don't think anyone
would describe him as appearing terribly refined, charming, or
unconfrontational; but he's got Libra rising. He has Saturn and Uranus in
the 1st House, but still, what exactly is the Ascending sign itself doing in
his case? I've noticed this in other charts, too, although I can't think of
any off-hand. The most notorious example, of course, is Adolf Hitler.

The German astrologer Doebereiner counts Libra to the "cruel" signs. Cruel
in the sense, that a certain princible is so strong, that destruction of
the individual is included in order to follow the princible. For Libra this
princible is unity.
The other cruel sign - following Doebereiner - is Taurus. Here the leading
principle is the welfare of the herd.

Well, Hitler had both: sun in Taurus and ascendant Libra. He's the very
prominent example for this theory.

Yours sincerely
Hannelore

[A B]

Post by Hannelore Goos

Post by A B
Has anybody here any opinions on how to interpret a Libra ascendant? It
rarely seems to have the meaning you'd assume it would have. I've just been
looking at J. B. Priestley's chart, for instance. I don't think anyone
would describe him as appearing terribly refined, charming, or
unconfrontational; but he's got Libra rising. He has Saturn and Uranus in
the 1st House, but still, what exactly is the Ascending sign itself doing in
his case? I've noticed this in other charts, too, although I can't think of
any off-hand. The most notorious example, of course, is Adolf Hitler.

The German astrologer Doebereiner counts Libra to the "cruel" signs. Cruel
in the sense, that a certain princible is so strong, that destruction of
the individual is included in order to follow the princible. For Libra this
princible is unity.
The other cruel sign - following Doebereiner - is Taurus. Here the leading
principle is the welfare of the herd.
Well, Hitler had both: sun in Taurus and ascendant Libra. He's the very
prominent example for this theory.

That seems to ring a bell. I'll have to see if I can find that anywhere
else. It certainly makes sense in Hitler's case, although it doesn't seem
to fit the others quite so neatly. Of course, all the signs have their own
particular agenda - I wonder why Libra and Taurus should be considered to be
so much more ruthless than the others?

I don't know why the group's so quiet just now. Seems to happen every so
often. There are still a few people dropping in occasionally, though, so
it's worth hanging around. Bound to pick up soon. Wonder if there's
anything astrological about that? I must have a look at the group's
transits some time.

[Hermes]

Post by A B

Post by Hannelore Goos

Post by A B
Has anybody here any opinions on how to interpret a Libra ascendant? It
rarely seems to have the meaning you'd assume it would have. I've just been
looking at J. B. Priestley's chart, for instance. I don't think anyone
would describe him as appearing terribly refined, charming, or
unconfrontational; but he's got Libra rising. He has Saturn and Uranus in
the 1st House, but still, what exactly is the Ascending sign itself doing in
his case? I've noticed this in other charts, too, although I can't think of
any off-hand. The most notorious example, of course, is Adolf Hitler.

The German astrologer Doebereiner counts Libra to the "cruel" signs. Cruel
in the sense, that a certain princible is so strong, that destruction of
the individual is included in order to follow the princible. For Libra this
princible is unity.
The other cruel sign - following Doebereiner - is Taurus. Here the leading
principle is the welfare of the herd.
Well, Hitler had both: sun in Taurus and ascendant Libra. He's the very
prominent example for this theory.

That seems to ring a bell. I'll have to see if I can find that anywhere
else. It certainly makes sense in Hitler's case, although it doesn't seem
to fit the others quite so neatly. Of course, all the signs have their own
particular agenda - I wonder why Libra and Taurus should be considered to be
so much more ruthless than the others?
I don't know why the group's so quiet just now. Seems to happen every so
often. There are still a few people dropping in occasionally, though, so
it's worth hanging around. Bound to pick up soon. Wonder if there's
anything astrological about that? I must have a look at the group's
transits some time.

Starting a post with a reference to Hitler is usually a bad start for
a long thread, at least according to Godwin's Law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
"[...] there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet
discussion forums that once such a comparison [to Nazis or Hitler] is
made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has
automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress. This principle
itself is frequently referred to as Godwin's law."

About Hitler's Chart. If you start with the chart ruler, Venus (AC
Libra => Venus), you find that all other planets and signs are "under"
Venus, i.e. "ruled" by Venus:

Venus
- Taurus
- Mars
- Aries
- Mercury
- Gemini
- Pluto
- Scorpio.
- Neptune
- Pisces.
- Virgo.
- DC
- Scorpio.
- Sun
- Leo
- Saturn
- Capricorn
- Jupiter
- Sagittarius.
- Pisces.
- Moon
- Cancer
- North Node
- South Node
- Aquarius
- IC
- MC
- Libra
- Uranus
- Aquarius
- IC
- AC

The Jupiter/Moon conjunction in the 3rd house deserves special mention
(and it is shared by George W. Bush, in his case in Libra). C.G. Jung
mentions in Aion that traditionally different religions had been
associated with conjunctions of Jupiter with other planets:

Jupiter/Saturn: Jewish
Jupiter/Venus: Muslim
Jupiter/Mercury: Christian
Jupiter/Moon: Antichrist

The abstract balance or dividing line between what is human and has
human rights and who/what has not (different race, animal, plant,
matter, etc.) has been shifted by both men in questionable ways. If
you are on the wrong scale pan, so to speak, the industrial machine
can be applied to you in any way. In that sense, the theme is also one
of the Age of Aquarius, between Aquarius and Leo, collective vs.
individual interest. Libra is the middle air sign, evolving in a way
from Gemini to Aquarius, fire to water in my model, so Libra tends to
decide towards Aquarius, water (love/fate).

With regard to cruelty in the immediate sense, maybe someone like
Mengele (Pisces sun, where Venus is exalted) fits maybe better than
Hitler, but also in Mengele's case there are indirect references to
Libra in his chart (planets at midpoint of two other planets) as I
posted once.

)o+

Post by A B
--
All the best,
A. B.
My e-mail address is zen177395 at zendotcodotuk, though I don't check that
account very often.

[Nicole]

Has anybody here any opinions on how to interpret a Libra ascendant?  It
rarely seems to have the meaning you'd assume it would have.  I've just been
looking at J. B. Priestley's chart, for instance.  I don't think anyone
would describe him as appearing terribly refined, charming, or
unconfrontational; but he's got Libra rising.  He has Saturn and Uranus in
the 1st House, but still, what exactly is the Ascending sign itself doing in
his case?  I've noticed this in other charts, too, although I can't think of
any off-hand.  The most notorious example, of course, is Adolf Hitler.
Personally, I think there's a more confrontational side to Libra than is
generally acknowledged.  There was Patrick Bronte's chart, for instance.  He
had Mars in Libra, and I couldn't relate it to anything except crusading
against perceived injustice - which makes symbolic sense, but isn't a
reading I've ever come across for Mars in Libra.  And there's the exaltation
of Saturn in Libra, which is generally explained in terms of justice and
discrimination.  The 7th is "the house of open enemies".  But whenever any
astrology book tries to describe Libra in its own right, we're back to
refinement, indecision, sociability, music and fancy clothes.
Having said all that, the standard version of Libra still seems to fit much
worse as an ascendant than anywhere else.  I wonder why?
--
A. B.
My e-mail address is zen177395 at  zendotcodotuk, though I don't check that
account very often.

A.B

Libra is the only zodiac sign represented by an inanimate object not
an animal or human so it has no soul.

Hitler typifies this soulless outlook, even in his art he drew solid
shapes and symbols-never people. He was a great warrior symbolised by
the bully Taurus of his natal Sun but Libra also gave him great
military strategies, Libra is an expert at strategic moves. He did not
see people, he just saw great blocks of land to own. I think he had a
Capricorn Moon which is probably why he described himself as 'The
Father' Capricorn is old father time or Kronos.

I've studied a few suicide charts as well and many have a Libra Sun
and Cancer Moon this means an inanimate or unreal soul essence
combined with the Cancerian hyper-sensitivity, deep worry and
moodiness. So they have a rather fake persona and like to please
everyone but underneath can get deeply hurt and both signs bail out
rather than fight.

[David Hecht]

Hitler had a "Capricorn moon" as did Stalin. Scorpio and Capricorn are
known as the "ruthless moons" but Capricorn is the truest expression of
this description. Most basically, it is just plain cold.

As for Libra rising being "confrontational", I'd be inclined to go with
argumentative. Libra is the second in the air triad of exploration.
While Gemini observes things in relation to each other, Libra observes
people as if gazing into a mirror. Thus, to obtain insight, various
ploys are used to gain responces including appearing argumentative for
it's own sake, which can often be annoying to others who feel the Libra
rising native is without motivation and is this toying with them in some
way.

The ascendent is the vehicle, the automatic front door of the house, the
portal through which everything happens lending it's coloration to
everything which occurs. A nebulous sign, seemingly amorphous like Libra
can make for mis-communication rather easily unless it is appreciated
that actual study is involved even when personal relationships are
assumed as being the medium at hand.

Aloofness is frequently used to describe people with this ascendent of
which I am one. From personal experience I can state that it is just
quite difficult to come across as if you care all that much about what
is going on, even if you do and the world finds this out in retrospect
as with Hitler, for instance. I admit this sounds contradictory but
there it goes again :)

If Hitler didn't vaccilate so much he probably would have conquered the
world. Disappearing for days when a decision is required is not such a
great way to gain the actual support of others. Even with the
dictatorial priority running through his veins suggested by his lunar
position he had to first consider any number of seemingly quirky modes
before actually manifesting anything, which is a sort of curse of this
sign.

The "inanimate" symbol is interesting in this context of trying to,
somehow, connect while having to play so many games for their own sake.
Alienation thus comes easily for those with this ascendent though they
are usually decent looking. I have met many a wandering soul with this
ascendent, self included, kind of an air sign curse, actually, despite
the innate sociability included in each of these signs.

I'll close by saying that it is sad to see this group down to 6 posts.
Guess now that pluto is in Capricorn, all the Sagittarians have gone
through as much introspection as they'll ever do and this appears to be
what is left. Astrology is such a great device, running concurrent with
every aspect of this experience but, somehow never really utilized the
way it might be. Then again, uranus does rule irony.

[A B]

I've been reading this thread with great interest, but somehow I haven't got
round to replying until now - sorry!
All these views of the "harder" side of Libra seem to make a lot of sense
individually, but fitting them together is more difficult. I'll post my
ideas so far, based on all the previous postings (thanks!) and various other
oddments.

The common thread, if any, seems to be about harmony and discord. Libra's
style is to gravitate towards perfect harmony by whatever means - either by
attracting dissonant elements into closer accord with the main theme, or by
rejecting them altogether. The "attraction" might change others' opinions
to match your own - I've seen it in several politicians' charts, where it
seems to indicate diplomacy and perhaps manipulation. Peter Mandelson's
chart is full of it, for instance. If the other opinions are more forceful,
it might shift yours to match them - indecision of course is one of the
other traits always ascribed to Libra. This would presumably be more of a
feature where the rest of the chart didn't indicate strong personal views.
Hitler displays the "rejecting" mode in the worst way. Obsessed with
creating a perfect, united country, he tried to do it by destroying
everything and everyone who didn't fit his ideas. Of course the same
principle can be more positive, as with Patrick Bronte fighting against
perceived injustice.

Also, there seem to be some signs that the "harmonising" effect of Libra is
almost mechanical - not something you'd guess from the standard textbooks,
which usually portray Libra as the supreme sentimentalist! Of course it can
be modified by other factors in the chart, but so can anything else. This
idea fits in very nicely with the mythology of the sign. As Nicole
remarked, it is the only sign of the Zodiac represented not by a living
creature but by a machine. (Traditionally the Zodiac is divided into
"bestial" and "human" signs, with Libra described as a "humane" sign; but
not in that sense!) The best-known mythological scales are the scales of
Justice, famously depicted as blind - no room for sentiment here, good or
bad. An earlier version is Zibanitu, the scales that weighed the hearts of
the dead in Egyptian myth. Again, no appeal from the verdict of the
machine; if the heart didn't match the weight of the feather of Truth, it
was simply eaten.

The "harmony" principle also manages to take in the better-known side of
Libra quite nicely, I think. The association with the arts, and especially
music, is a particuarly good fit (and one that I've found more reliable than
most, in my limited experience). Music brings in harmony in its most
literal sense. The effect depends on the mathematical relations between the
notes, and also on the "resonance" between the sounds and the listener's
expectations.

The seventh house could be said to be where another person is weighed
against the self. The two might balance perfectly - partnerships, love and
marriage. But if not, the discordant person is rejected. Some describe the
seventh as the house of open enemies.

Any thoughts? I know I'm theorising into the air here, so any charts
bearing on all this would be appreciated.